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-   -   Skuas (https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=119734)

Markus Lagerqvist Thursday 31st July 2008 05:11

Skuas
 
In case anyone has access there's a new study on skua phylogeography out on Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution:

"Phylogeography of the southern skua complex – rapid colonisation of the southern hemisphere during a glacial period and reticulate evolution".

It can be found here:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...8e984cf726443f

Richard Klim Friday 23rd August 2013 15:05

Southern skuas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Lagerqvist (Post 1254779)
In case anyone has access there's a new study on skua phylogeography out on Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution:
"Phylogeography of the southern skua complex – rapid colonisation of the southern hemisphere during a glacial period and reticulate evolution".

Ritz, Millar, Miller, Phillips, Ryan, Sternkopf, Liebers-Helbig & Peter 2008. Phylogeography of the southern skua complex—rapid colonization of the southern hemisphere during a glacial period and reticulate evolution. Mol Phylogenet Evol 49(1): 292–303. [abstract] [pdf]

Richard Klim Friday 23rd August 2013 15:06

Arctic Skua
 
Janssen & Mundy (in press). Molecular population genetics of the melanic plumage polymorphism in Arctic skuas (Stercorarius parasiticus): evidence for divergent selection on plumage colour. Mol Ecol. [abstract]

Peter Kovalik Friday 7th October 2016 17:53

Caio J Carlos. How many genera of Stercorariidae are there? Brazilian Journal of Ornithology, Vol. 24 (2), pp. 191-195.

Abstract:
In this contribution I comment on the generic taxonomy of skuas, Stercorariidae, based on the currently available hypotheses of phylogenetic relationships for the group – i.e., the cladograms. Specifically, the different cladograms were examined following Hennig's principle of reciprocal illumination, in which a given hypothesis is evaluated by the extent to which it agrees with competing hypotheses. Currently, all species are often assigned to genus Stercorarius. However, chewing lice- (Insecta, Phthiraptera), behaviour- (territorial display and calls) and molecular-based (mitochondrial DNA) hypotheses of phylogenetic relationships all indicate that Pomarine Skua Stercorarius pomarinus and the species formerly placed in genus Catharacta are monophyletic and sister to a clade comprising Long-tailed S. longicaudus and Parasitic S. parasiticus Skuas. Therefore, contrary to the prevailing view that all species within the family should be placed in a single genus, I argue herein that in a cladistic-based classification by sequencing, both S. parasiticus and S. longicaudus should retain their generic name, whereas S. pomarinus should be transferred to Catharacta, as C. pomarina.

pdf here

l_raty Wednesday 29th November 2017 21:33

Janssen, Mundy. 2017. The genetic basis and enigmatic origin of melanic polymorphism in pomarine skuas (Stercorarius pomarinus). Proc. R. Soc. B 284:20171735.
[abstract]

Peter Kovalik Monday 13th May 2019 18:41

Proposal (831) to SACC

Recognize two genera in Stercorariidae

njlarsen Monday 13th May 2019 19:18

I thought they only propagated a proposal to the other committee if it resulted in a change?

Niels

Kratter Monday 13th May 2019 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by njlarsen (Post 3848851)
I thought they only propagated a proposal to the other committee if it resulted in a change?

Niels

Only if the taxon in question has part of its distribution entirely outside the continent and in the other committee's area; e.g. if the NACC didn't split Blue-vented Hummingbird (entirely in Central America) from Steely-vented (entirely in South America) in this year's proposals, then the SACC would likely not vote on it. But all the jaegers and some skuas occur in both the SACC and NACC, so each Committee can vote on it.

l_raty Tuesday 14th May 2019 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kratter (Post 3848864)
But all the jaegers and some skuas occur in both the SACC and NACC, so each Committee can vote on it.

If I may, though... Wouldn't it make sense to update the proposal in this type of case ? (Or, alternatively, wouldn't it have been more sensible to have both committees voting on it simultaneously ?)
I can't really see the added value in a vote by a second committee, in summer 2019, on a proposal dating from 2017 and which is in any case silent about a quite significant late-2017 work (cf. my post #5 above).

("[...], we re-sequenced four unlinked neutral loci across the skuas. For all four loci, the alleles in the pomarine skua cluster with alleles of the great skuas, and for three out of four loci, the pomarine skua even shares alleles with the great skuas (figure 3).")

viator Tuesday 14th May 2019 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by l_raty (Post 3849080)
I can't really see the added value in a vote by a second committee,

Hence the value of the IOC (or other global taxonomies) over country or regional committee's.....

njlarsen Tuesday 14th May 2019 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kratter (Post 3848864)
Only if the taxon in question has part of its distribution entirely outside the continent and in the other committee's area; e.g. if the NACC didn't split Blue-vented Hummingbird (entirely in Central America) from Steely-vented (entirely in South America) in this year's proposals, then the SACC would likely not vote on it. But all the jaegers and some skuas occur in both the SACC and NACC, so each Committee can vote on it.

I am still wondering about why this particular proposal is propagated. The maker of the proposal recommends "no change" and the NACC agreed. Recently, I have seen comments to the SACC proposals that there is a backlog of things that should be done. Why then propagate a "no change" proposal to take up time that could be better used on something else? Is it because the person bringing it forward hopes for a different result? But if so, why not openly state that?

By the way, I hope Laurent's comments about the additional information after the original proposal do get forwarded to the committee.

Niels

mb1848 Tuesday 14th May 2019 17:50

Correction to ‘The genetic basis and enigmatic origin of melanic polymorphism in pomarine skuas (Stercorarius pomarinus)’ (2018)
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...rspb.2018.0518 .
These errors have no bearing on the reporting of results, discussion or conclusions of the paper and the text, including figure legends, is unchanged.
Is Catharacta right?
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/f...0345-p0348.pdf .

l_raty Wednesday 15th May 2019 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by mb1848 (Post 3849205)

Yes.
Allen's opinion (Catharacta Brünnich preoccupied by Catarractes Brisson, because they are variant spellings of the same classical word) was conform to American usage of that time, the present Code says otherwise. There is no homonymy between genus-group names differing even by a single letter, whatever the derivation.

Kratter Wednesday 15th May 2019 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by njlarsen (Post 3849185)
I am still wondering about why this particular proposal is propagated. The maker of the proposal recommends "no change" and the NACC agreed. Recently, I have seen comments to the SACC proposals that there is a backlog of things that should be done. Why then propagate a "no change" proposal to take up time that could be better used on something else? Is it because the person bringing it forward hopes for a different result? But if so, why not openly state that?

By the way, I hope Laurent's comments about the additional information after the original proposal do get forwarded to the committee.

Niels

The SACC and NACC are completely independent to make their own decisions. So it doesn't matter what the other Committee votes; we (in my case the NACC) should make their own decision. Our goal is to address all publications that advocate changes in the taxonomy or nomenclature, whether we agree or not. Proposal writes often make recommendations, but this need to be the case. In this case, the paper's authors proposed that Catharacta be split from Stercorarrius (parasiticus and longicaudus), so both Committees re bound to vote.
Andy

Andy

Nutcracker Wednesday 15th May 2019 16:54

Seems a good time to dispose of the name 'jaeger' and call them all skuas, in line with the proposal to treat them all in one genus - particularly when the name division doesn't match what genetic division there is :t: o:D

Farnboro John Wednesday 15th May 2019 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nutcracker (Post 3849497)
Seems a good time to dispose of the name 'jaeger' and call them all skuas, in line with the proposal to treat them all in one genus - particularly when the name division doesn't match what genetic division there is :t: o:D

As they are traditionally named in English anyway..... ;) I've never called them anything else and I don't know anyone who has :t:

John

awiner Wednesday 15th May 2019 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farnboro John (Post 3849580)
As they are traditionally named in English anyway..... ;) I've never called them anything else and I don't know anyone who has :t:

John

Then I imagine you don't know any Australian or US birders? (Jaeger is used in both countries, per their official checklists.)

(Edit: also the official South African checklist, though I've no idea what common parlance is, and the old Roberts checklist used Skua across the board.)

andrew147 Friday 17th May 2019 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by awiner (Post 3849584)
also the official South African checklist, though I've no idea what common parlance is, and the old Roberts checklist used Skua across the board.

On a recent Cape Town pelagic, the very excellent guide switched between Parasitic Jaeger, Arctic Jaeger and Arctic Skua without comment!

Maybe there is no common parlance :)

Neomorphus Saturday 18th May 2019 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew147 (Post 3850337)
On a recent Cape Town pelagic, the very excellent guide switched between Parasitic Jaeger, Arctic Jaeger and Arctic Skua without comment!

Maybe there is no common parlance :)


Just for the record.... Jaeger is a Germanic word which means hunter. The Stercorarius sensu stricto do not hunt, while they do occur in the subantarctic... all a bit of a mess really. I think we should just continue to argue this one out for whatever dumb reason.

Farnboro John Saturday 18th May 2019 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by awiner (Post 3849584)
Then I imagine you don't know any Australian or US birders? (Jaeger is used in both countries, per their official checklists.)

(Edit: also the official South African checklist, though I've no idea what common parlance is, and the old Roberts checklist used Skua across the board.)

Yes, but their versions of English are both subordinate - I won't say inferior - to English (is sensu stricto the phrase I'm looking for?) o:D

John

Nutcracker Saturday 18th May 2019 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farnboro John (Post 3850498)
Yes, but their versions of English are both subordinate - I won't say inferior - to English (is sensu stricto the phrase I'm looking for?) o:D

John

Not the nominate infrataxon :t:

Scelorchilus Wednesday 22nd May 2019 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neomorphus (Post 3850477)
Just for the record.... Jaeger is a Germanic word which means hunter. The Stercorarius sensu stricto do not hunt, while they do occur in the subantarctic... all a bit of a mess really. I think we should just continue to argue this one out for whatever dumb reason.

The jaegers do not hunt? Whaaaat. That is all they do in the Arctic, hunt!

Neomorphus Thursday 23rd May 2019 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scelorchilus (Post 3852111)
The jaegers do not hunt? Whaaaat. That is all they do in the Arctic, hunt!

No hold on whey.... kleptoparasitism is not hunting, it's when some dude forces you to pay for badly washing your windscreen at the lights when you didn't want it washed in the first place!

Yes they chase, harass, belly pinch, peck, gauge, they can easily cause a lot of damage, although I don't call that hunting. I was talking about jaegers (Long-tailed/ Parasitic ) NOT skuas pecking the shit out of a baby gull or plover. It would be great to see a paper about jaegers "hunting".... please FW. I don't know enough about where Pomarine fits in, but there you go.

njlarsen Thursday 23rd May 2019 01:44

I have a European book that describes food during breeding of LT Jaeger as mainly mice and lemmings, adds things like berries, bird nestlings etc, and finishes by saying the species generally does less kleptoparasitism than other similar species. The same book describes Parasitic as mixing fish from kleptoparasitism with small mammals during breeding.

Niels

l_raty Thursday 23rd May 2019 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neomorphus (Post 3852149)
Yes they chase, harass, belly pinch, peck, gauge, they can easily cause a lot of damage, although I don't call that hunting.

Perhaps but, on the other hand, they're not called "hunters". In German, "jagen" also means to chase / to pursue.


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