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Common Redstart age? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter KenM
- Start date
Jean FRANCOIS
Well-known member
I have the impression that there are two different birds.
In the first photo, the color of the throat and the speckled appearance of the chest indicate to me a young female.
For the next ones, I think of an adult female (new plumage, uniform GC)
Jean
In the first photo, the color of the throat and the speckled appearance of the chest indicate to me a young female.
For the next ones, I think of an adult female (new plumage, uniform GC)
Jean
Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
Ken, ageing autumn females in the hand is extremely difficult and requires practice/experience so I would strongly advise against attempting to age a bird from what are, at best, rather poor record shots. You cannot age 2cy birds in autumn.
Grahame
Grahame
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KenM
Well-known member
Grahame, are you saying that female sub-adult Common Redstarts can look this grey to the upper-parts, as my understanding is that guide books have always suggested that immature and adult females are of a brown persuasion, certainly in the field all the adult females that I’ve seen have been so. However my experience of immature Autumn birds is limited.
Here's a better image showing the grey upperparts.
Cheers
Here's a better image showing the grey upperparts.
Cheers
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Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
When did I mention the upper parts?
Autumn ageing is by the shape of the rectrices and moult limit in the GC's which, particularly in females, can be very subtle. The newly moulted inners (adult) have slightly darker and greyer centres and fringes which contrast with the outer (worn juvenile) feathers with have broader, buffish fringes.
Suggest you look at this http://ringersdigiguide.ottenby.se/species/phoenicurus-phoenicurus/autumn/
Grahame
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KenM
Well-known member
Thanks for that Grahame I've got to dash now, when I get back I'll immerse myself in the Coverts, in the meantime here's another shot!
Cheers
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Jane Turner
Well-known member
Pretty sure I can see a moult contrast in the greater coverts which would make it a 1st year bird.
And because its possible to see a contrast, its likely that its a 1st cal year male. Hint of a 5 o clock shadow on the throat of that last photo which would support that.
And because its possible to see a contrast, its likely that its a 1st cal year male. Hint of a 5 o clock shadow on the throat of that last photo which would support that.
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Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
Jane you begin the process with sexing and I see no feature that supports it being a male http://ringersdigiguide.ottenby.se/species/phoenicurus-phoenicurus/sexing/
So female it is IMHO of uncertain age.
Grahame
KenM
Well-known member
Having trawled the web for comparable images (not many) and skimming through your link (for the time being), I can see where you're coming from Grahame, it would certainly appear to be a bit of a minefield regarding ageing between post juv.moult and female maturity.
I suppose, only ever seeing sub-adult males 2nd calendar year (April) on Cyprus with any regularity, mostly with varying degrees of brown mantle and wings looking quite distinctly different from the grey backed adults, and at the expense of not noting any female types.
Many thanks for the link.
I suppose, only ever seeing sub-adult males 2nd calendar year (April) on Cyprus with any regularity, mostly with varying degrees of brown mantle and wings looking quite distinctly different from the grey backed adults, and at the expense of not noting any female types.
Many thanks for the link.
johnallcock
Well-known member
I'm not particularly familiar with Common Redstart, but I thought males and females were easily separable even in the first calendar year (ie post-juvenile moult). Shouldn't a male look more like this? http://www.oiseaux.net/photos/aurelien.audevard/common.redstart.6.html
A second CY bird in September (ie more than 1 year old) should surely have completed a moult cycle and be indistinguishable from an adult male. This may not apply to any 2nd CY birds you have seen in April (when they are still less than a year old, and may still retain some juvenile feathers).
So, for me this is surely a female, and as Grahame says ageing it could be extremely difficult.
A second CY bird in September (ie more than 1 year old) should surely have completed a moult cycle and be indistinguishable from an adult male. This may not apply to any 2nd CY birds you have seen in April (when they are still less than a year old, and may still retain some juvenile feathers).
So, for me this is surely a female, and as Grahame says ageing it could be extremely difficult.
rollingthunder
Well-known member
I cannot contribute to the ageing process, apart from feeling the strain myself at times
, but do these sub-Saharan birds bother much with returning in immature plumage if they are unlikely to breed?
Laurie:t:
, but do these sub-Saharan birds bother much with returning in immature plumage if they are unlikely to breed?Laurie:t:
KenM
Well-known member
Probably about ten years ago now, I stumbled into a family group of Redstarts in Shropshire circa June/July period, where the young were low down in the ferns and the (Brown) adult female was feeding them (couldn’t see the young).
Eventually she flew off and was soon replaced by another bird that was featureless apart from a concolourous grey crown and back, and of course requisite quivering red tail, thus leaving me somewhat confused.
I don’t believe they’re double brooded, thus it must have been a 2nd calendar year bird, perhaps from the previous year, as for the sex I presumed male....dunno. :eek!:
Eventually she flew off and was soon replaced by another bird that was featureless apart from a concolourous grey crown and back, and of course requisite quivering red tail, thus leaving me somewhat confused.
I don’t believe they’re double brooded, thus it must have been a 2nd calendar year bird, perhaps from the previous year, as for the sex I presumed male....dunno. :eek!:
rollingthunder
Well-known member
You have to ask yourself - how many birders are there in the Wintering grounds during our Summer looking for them.....
Laurie:t:
Laurie:t:
Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
I cannot contribute to the ageing process, apart from feeling the strain myself at times
Laurie:t:
Why are they unlikely to breed Laurie? 2cy birds return in spring in good numbers, same rules apply as autumn in that males are readily identifiable whereas females are much trickier to age and require close scrutiny in the hand. Further, 2cy birds have more worn (browner) primaries, secondaries and tail feathers which, in males, can be quite obvious in the field. In adults these tracts are relatively fresh.
See http://ringersdigiguide.ottenby.se/species/phoenicurus-phoenicurus/spring/
Grahame
rollingthunder
Well-known member
I don’t know Graham but i am ‘assuming’ that birds have a nuptial plumage for a reason - to be accepted as a suitable mate. With species that show a strong colour dimorphism e.g. Redstart i am assuming that altho birds are probably physically capable of reproduction they are less likely to be acceptable to a female because they look ‘dodgy’.
I am no expert and i appreciate advice from birders like you who are:t:
I am thinking out aloud here - why have the adult plumage in these species if it is not for bragging rights with the girls and if so why bother making the not considerable effort of trans-Saharan migration in order to be jealous at the orgy?
Then i think about the Phylloscopus and strongly dimorphic Sylvias’ and where does Garden Warbler fit in
I would appreciate any input as i find all this stuff interesting and makes a change from primary projection and emarginations:eek!:
Good Birding -
Laurie -
I am no expert and i appreciate advice from birders like you who are:t:
I am thinking out aloud here - why have the adult plumage in these species if it is not for bragging rights with the girls and if so why bother making the not considerable effort of trans-Saharan migration in order to be jealous at the orgy?
Then i think about the Phylloscopus and strongly dimorphic Sylvias’ and where does Garden Warbler fit in
I would appreciate any input as i find all this stuff interesting and makes a change from primary projection and emarginations:eek!:
Good Birding -
Laurie -
KenM
Well-known member
Some interesting points raised there Laurie. If I may use e.g. Peregrines, where one of a pair disappears at a well watched territory, and it’s place is filled by a sub-adult bird that becomes available from the “unpaired” pool of non breeders. Might there be a “new partner”mechanism within the species for this type of emergency, and if so might it also be a “function” possibility for other species, as we do know that with certain species, first brood offspring might help with the rearing of the second?....dunno. :t:
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Jane Turner
Well-known member
I can still see quite a distinct moult boundary in the greater coverts [looks like 6 ogc's on both wings] - in both the length and the edges/tips. Its a long time since I handled a Redstart, but it always took a lot of effort and getting the light just right to see it in the hand on females.
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johnallcock
Well-known member
I don’t know Graham but i am ‘assuming’ that birds have a nuptial plumage for a reason - to be accepted as a suitable mate. With species that show a strong colour dimorphism e.g. Redstart i am assuming that altho birds are probably physically capable of reproduction they are less likely to be acceptable to a female because they look ‘dodgy’.
I am no expert and i appreciate advice from birders like you who are:t:
I am thinking out aloud here - why have the adult plumage in these species if it is not for bragging rights with the girls and if so why bother making the not considerable effort of trans-Saharan migration in order to be jealous at the orgy?
Then i think about the Phylloscopus and strongly dimorphic Sylvias’ and where does Garden Warbler fit in
I would appreciate any input as i find all this stuff interesting and makes a change from primary projection and emarginations:eek!:
Good Birding -
Laurie -
Just to come back to my earlier point, do Common Redstart males have an 'adult' plumage? Or do adults and first year birds look essentially the same, apart from the wear of the retained flight feathers and coverts? If they are similar, then there is no apparent reason that they would not breed at one year old.
I am more familiar with Daurian Redstart, in which the males have a post-juvenile body moult to adult plumage before the first migration, and are best aged according to retained coverts and flight feathers. (Females are extremely difficult to age, based largely on tail shape because moult contrast is very hard to see). Grahame's comments and links suggest that the same moult pattern applies for Common Redstart.
If Common Redstart also has this moult sequence, then a 2CY male in September should have a clearly grey back, black throat and rufous underparts. Even a first CY male would have similar pattern, but more obscured by brown fringes. The subject bird doesn't have anything resembling this pattern, so should surely be a female. In which case, ageing becomes more difficult.
rollingthunder
Well-known member
Thank you John - all very interesting stuff mate:t:
Laurie -
Laurie -
