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Nikon FF (and DX) Mirrorless rumours/ announcements (1 Viewer)

A camera like the Ricoh GR would likely be ideal for a curved sensor.
Also faster wide-angle lenses where you would be able to make the lens smaller and lighter. For telephoto lenses probably not that much unfortunately.

But maybe nano-pillar lenses is the future, when we get tired of lugging around with our favorite fresnel lenses.

https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2018/01/single-metalens-focuses-all-colors-of-rainbow-in-one-point

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...rd-reveals-radical-new-lens-nanomaterial.html
 
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A camera like the Ricoh GR would likely be ideal for a curved sensor.
Also faster wide-angle lenses where you would be able to make the lens smaller and lighter. For telephoto lenses probably not that much unfortunately.

But maybe nano-pillar lenses is the future, when we get tired of lugging around with our favorite fresnel lenses.

https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2018/01/single-metalens-focuses-all-colors-of-rainbow-in-one-point

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...rd-reveals-radical-new-lens-nanomaterial.html
Metal? lenses, Mental! lenses, or even Meta lenses - they're all a way off as yet, even in the research realm .... whereas curved sensors have been prototyped, the manufacturing principles proven, and resolution advantages tested and confirmed.

Meta lenses don't cover the entire visible spectrum of light wavelengths yet, and then there is the question of transmission, and focal lengths etc. No doubt an exciting future, but we will see widespread curved sensors first.

Perhaps a multi-camera (4-8) meta lens equipped smartphone with computational photography may be the first application we see for meta lenses .....

The advantages of current lens design techniques specifically for curved sensors show advantages in reduced lens counts (hence weight) across all focal lengths from wide-angle to super-telephoto.

I think a large (FF, APS-C) curved sensor (stacked BSI) ultra compact physical size fast fixed lens camera, or even wideangle zoom would make a nice high quality street camera. Also, a curved sensor (stacked BSI) and purpose designed lens would be fantastic for something like the Sony RX10 IV format.


Chosun :gh:
 
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Metal? lenses, Mental! lenses, or even Meta lenses - they're all a way off as yet, even in the research realm .... whereas curved sensors have been prototyped, the manufacturing principles proven, and resolution advantages tested and confirmed.

Meta lenses don't cover the entire visible spectrum of light wavelengths yet,

Chosun :gh:

They do now (first article), but not one year ago (last article). B :)

“By combining two nanofins into one element, we can tune the speed of light in the nanostructured material, to ensure that all wavelengths in the visible are focused in the same spot, using a single metalens. This dramatically reduces thickness and design complexity compared to composite standard achromatic lenses.”

“Using our achromatic lens, we are able to perform high quality, white light imaging. This brings us one step closer to the goal of incorporating them into common optical devices such as cameras,” said Alexander Zhu, co-author of the study.

https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2018/01/single-metalens-focuses-all-colors-of-rainbow-in-one-point

Curved lenses in a DSLR will take a while.
Probably the DSLR will be extinct before that happens.
:-O

In a full-frame mirrorless, maybe in 5-10 years??
 
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New rumor today:
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/01/11/...z-mount-with-16mm-flange-focal-distance.aspx/

And LOTS of comments/discussion down below the rumor.

I like the curved sensor concept but my guess is that won't be the main big Nikon mirrorless announcement this year. I simply can't imagine wanting to adapt my F mount lenses to a curved sensor ILC. I think the image quality compromise would be too great. But that's mostly an intuitive gut feeling; I could be wrong. On the other hand, using my F-mount lenses with a simple "F to Z" adapter for a flat sensor mirrorless... I have no problem with that as long as the adapter is done right.

My guess is that curved sensor cameras will first be introduced as small "all in one" fixed lens cameras for enthusiasts, way smaller than a DSLR, and also a bit smaller than competing flat sensor mirrorless options, but with equal or better image quality (and far better IQ than any phone).

Dave
So it looks like flat FF sensor, maybe with DX to follow, 16mm FFD, and a relatively compact rangefinder type body ..... :cat:

Dave, adapting F-mount lenses to a curved sensor via an appropriately designed adapter wouldn't necessarily see any loss in image quality (there might even be a small gain). There is a small weight impost, and I think with the type of body proposed, pretty compromised ergonomics for hand holding super-telephotos.

As far as adapting F-mount lenses to the Flat sensor Mirrorless 'Z' mount, I think that is something Nikon will get right .... there's no option really - they have to.

Smartphones currently handle everything bar low light, long telephoto, and high speed, and are always with you devices.

I think there is market space for Nikon with the outfits I replied to Vespo. They might even manage to expand the overall DC market slightly with such an offering. Evolution rather than revolution.

I'm not sure where curved sensors will debut - could be anywhere from low profit, high volume smartphone camera systems to high profit, low volume FF (or even MF) cameras and/or everything in-between ..... lt will be interesting that's for sure.


Chosun :gh:
 
They do now (first article), but not one year ago (last article). B :)

“By combining two nanofins into one element, we can tune the speed of light in the nanostructured material, to ensure that all wavelengths in the visible are focused in the same spot, using a single metalens. This dramatically reduces thickness and design complexity compared to composite standard achromatic lenses.”

“Using our achromatic lens, we are able to perform high quality, white light imaging. This brings us one step closer to the goal of incorporating them into common optical devices such as cameras,” said Alexander Zhu, co-author of the study.

https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2018/01/single-metalens-focuses-all-colors-of-rainbow-in-one-point

Curved lenses in a DSLR will take a while.
Probably the DSLR will be extinct before that happens.
:-O

In a full-frame mirrorless, maybe in 5-10 years??
Vespo, thanks - that's a better link - the one in your previous post ran into security certificate concerns for my phone.

Going to the source paper in the 'Nature' journal (abstract only available freely) makes me skeptical of the 'All' in "all wavelengths in the visible" claims ....
"We demonstrate diffraction-limited achromatic focusing and achromatic imaging from 470 to 670 nm." ..... that's a long way from the entire visible light spectrum of 380 to 750nm (though some define it greater or lesser ranges than this). It only represents 54% ..... so it's hard to see the claims for true white light (the violet light - 410nm - contribution would be missing, as would the deepest of dark reds). I think that might be a case of a looser defined effective claim and reporting exuberance.

At some stage in the future, phase detect on chip catches up to and surpass the DSLR's seperate dedicated phase detect AF system, and rolling shutter is solved to be no longer an issue in Mirrorless. Whether this happens before curved sensors reach DSLR's .... ? ..... probably. Though the hand filling pro DSLR ergonomics will live on.

I would say DSLR's would live on for circa~5years, while at the same time we will have curved sensor mirrorless with DSLR ergos long before that.

Either way while the transition ensues, the collective lens and mount catalogue's combinations and permutations will get a bit messy and/or limiting .... but likely both.


Chosun :gh:
 
"We demonstrate diffraction-limited achromatic focusing and achromatic imaging from 470 to 670 nm." ..... that's a long way from the entire visible light spectrum of 380 to 750nm (though some define it greater or lesser ranges than this). It only represents 54% ..... so it's hard to see the claims for true white light (the violet light - 410nm - contribution would be missing, as would the deepest of dark reds). I think that might be a case of a looser defined effective claim and reporting exuberance.

At some stage in the future, phase detect on chip catches up to and surpass the DSLR's seperate dedicated phase detect AF system, and rolling shutter is solved to be no longer an issue in Mirrorless. Whether this happens before curved sensors reach DSLR's .... ? ..... probably. Though the hand filling pro DSLR ergonomics will live on.

I would say DSLR's would live on for circa~5years, while at the same time we will have curved sensor mirrorless with DSLR ergos long before that.

Either way while the transition ensues, the collective lens and mount catalogue's combinations and permutations will get a bit messy and/or limiting .... but likely both.

Chosun :gh:

470 to 670 nm is about what to expect from an ordinary camera lens. Problem will be diameter though, "aiming to scale to 1 cm".

https://www.lenstip.com/179.9-Lens_..._ZS_ZE_Ghosting__flares_and_transmission.html

Haven't seen any side by side with Lumix G9 and D5 but it seems that contrast detect is closing in on competition.
And 20 fps with continuos AF is faster than any DSLR.

"The Panasonic G9 represents the most capable Contrast Detect AF camera ever released. Proof of this is the fact that is aced all of our autofocus tests"

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dc-g9/6
 
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470 to 670 nm is about what to expect from an ordinary camera lens. Problem will be diameter though, "aiming to scale to 1 cm".

https://www.lenstip.com/179.9-Lens_..._ZS_ZE_Ghosting__flares_and_transmission.html

Haven't seen any side by side with Lumix G9 and D5 but it seems that contrast detect is closing in on competition.
And 20 fps with continuos AF is faster than any DSLR.

"The Panasonic G9 represents the most capable Contrast Detect AF camera ever released. Proof of this is the fact that is aced all of our autofocus tests"

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dc-g9/6
That's a nice transmission graph of the Zeiss lens. It all depends on what the transmission levels are outside of the range quoted. Ramping up from 80%+ on both sides evenly is not really going to affect the whiteness of the image to human eyes. I'm puzzled as to what is meant by an "efficiency" of 20% at 500nm in the meta lens paper though .... if that's transmission % then there's a long long way to go regardless of lens diameters achieved.

As far as the contrast detect AF of the Panasonic G9 goes though, being the best 'Contrast Detect' AF system doesn't put it in the same category as the best AF system (Nikon D5), and it's not quite up to the levels you have said.

From the same DP review .....

(some) Cons:
* Depth from Defocus flutter is distracting when shooting action
* EVF resolution drops when shutter is pressed
* 20 fps mode using electronic shutter can result in rolling shutter effect


(from) Conclusion:
" ... while the 20 fps burst mode is limited to about 50 shots, the 9 fps burst speed (using the mechanical shutter) can go for hundreds of frames."

"Even more impressive is the fact the G9 can track a subject at its top burst speed with a very good hit rate. All this is good news, but its worth pointing out that the way in which its Contrast Detect AF system works is by very rapidly 'wobbling' the focus element back and forth to constantly ensure peak sharpness. In use, this 'wobble' or 'flutter' can be pretty distracting in the EVF, especially if you're trying to follow action. This was a problem I consistently ran into while shooting basketball."

"Panasonic made improvements to Dual I.S. 2 in the G9, which works by combining the camera's 5-axis sensor stabilization with lens-based stabilization (on compatible lenses). Those improvements have paid off, because the G9 offers the best stabilization of any camera we've tested. We were able to measure 5 2/3 stops of added hand-hold-ability at 200mm, besting the previous champ EM-1 II at the same focal length by 2/3rds a stop."


The Final Word:
"Of course, for a very similar price to the EM-1 II and G9, one can snag the sports-shooting-beast Nikon D500. To that point, if you are not already invested in a system and stills are your primary focus, I'd have to recommend the D500 over either m43 options. Its AF performance is in a league of its own,"

It is interesting that the G9 only received a 'Silver' award even though it more or less matches the Olympus OM-D EM-1 II, primarily because it is a year on from that camera's 'Gold' award. Salient message for Nikon here - merely matching the hatch does not equal market leadership.

From this, the rest of the competition, and Nikon's own statements of intent re- leading IQ, EVF performance, and it's existing reputation for the best AF, I think we can deduce several important factors around Nikon's Mirrorless offering:-
(i) Nikon is likely to offer high end model$ despite the compact body size
(ii) No mention has been made of IBIS but I think it would be a must, and would have to at least equal the best if not move the game on
(iii) The EVF will have to be the best ever seen. It will have to be without compromise as seen on the competition.
(iv) AF performance will have to trump the competition.

Wishes:
** I would love to see an exposure histogram visible in the part of the EVF during normal focusing along with all the other usual information - this would make exposure compensation so much easier. Does anyone know of another camera that does this?
** I would love to see not only 'eye-start' AF as on my old film Minolta SLR, but continuous 'eye-directed AF' as well
** An add-on horizontal battery grip in hand filling DSLR style



Chosun :gh:
 
Maybe software engineers can tame the G9's wobbling/fluttering AF so that it behaves less unruly. Still, after reading that review I've lost my interest in the camera. For people with a priority for "birds in flight" the Nikon D500 remains the gold standard.

Edit: Not to forget the Canon 7D Mkii, and the Nikon D7200, and a few others... all phantastic BIF tools. I'd love to see a serious field test how these are doing with small birds flying towards the camera. I don't mind the G9 to participate, not at all. If it wins, I might want one.
 
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** I would love to see an exposure histogram visible in the part of the EVF during normal focusing along with all the other usual information - this would make exposure compensation so much easier. Does anyone know of another camera that does this?
Chosun :gh:

My Olympus E-M1 Mark II does this, and I think most other Olympus models as well. I think most cameras with an EVF should have an option to show a live histogram... I like the shadow/highlight "blinkies" also, as they are a better indicator of whether the bird is over/underexposed, or the other elements in the frame near the bird.

Dave
 
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My Olympus E-M1 Mark II does this, and I think most other Olympus models as well. I think most cameras with an EVF should have an option to show a live histogram... I like the shadow/highlight "blinkies" also, as they are a better indicator of whether the bird is over/underexposed, or the other elements in the frame near the bird.

Dave

I MUST HAVE this feature !



Chosun :gh:
 
Maybe software engineers can tame the G9's wobbling/fluttering AF so that it behaves less unruly. Still, after reading that review I've lost my interest in the camera. For people with a priority for "birds in flight" the Nikon D500 remains the gold standard.

Edit: Not to forget the Canon 7D Mkii, and the Nikon D7200, and a few others... all phantastic BIF tools. I'd love to see a serious field test how these are doing with small birds flying towards the camera. I don't mind the G9 to participate, not at all. If it wins, I might want one.

I would not draw conclusions that fast on 1 single review. I've seen other reviewers praising the G9 viewfinder when used for actions shots. But type of usage and preferences might vary.
 
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Thanks Mike,
That is an encouraging rumor. I like Sigma, more than Nikon when it comes to lenses lately.

Thom Hogan has a new blog post where he makes his predictions for Nikon in 2018. Look down near the end for the predictions... I daresay Thom is even more long-winded than Chosun or I! :)

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/nikons-2018.html

It seems lot of folks don't like Thom. I actually agree with most of what he says and I've often thought it's too bad he isn't in charge at Nikon. Anyway it does sound like it will be a landmark or "big reveal" year for Nikon, finally, and we may know more pretty soon.

Dave
 
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Thanks Mike,
That is an encouraging rumor. I like Sigma, more than Nikon when it comes to lenses lately.

Thom Hogan has a new blog post where he makes his predictions for Nikon in 2018. Look down near the end for the predictions... I daresay Thom is even more long-winded than Chosun or I! :)

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/nikons-2018.html

It seems lot of folks don't like Thom. I actually agree with most of what he says and I've often thought it's too bad he isn't in charge at Nikon. Anyway it does sound like it will be a landmark or "big reveal" year for Nikon, finally, and we may know more pretty soon.

Dave
I think Thom has been reading this thread!

I hope that Nikon does come out with a D500S and a D5S, they could certainly gain a lot of leverage off their leading performance and marketing investment to date. I also hope they come out with that lightened (《2.27kg) FL glass 300mm f2.8. Surely those are 3 pretty easy goals to kick?

As for the D760 upgrade, surely that can't be that complex or onerous a task either considering all the D5, D500, D850 runs on the board.

I wouldn't mind betting that Nikon release both high end, AND more volume market prosumer level Mirrorless offerings in FX and DX formats.

The D610 ? .... probably best to let that die a lonely death in peace. The D3400 ? Either upgrade the connectivity, or maybe it goes the same way ....... surely Mirrorless replaces this entry level sooner rather than later?

The Df ? A retro styling and UI exercise. There is plenty in the parts bin to upgrade this stylish offering. A 51-pt 3D tracking AF system should be the minimum going forward for any DSLR ....

I certainly agree with Thom - Nikon needs to be next to market with a FF Mirrorless (certainly in front of Canon), and they need to curtail market leakage to MFT. Also, the lens issue is key. All of these existing DSLR/ new Mirrorless conundrums are not really questions of Engineering resource, or even financial ones, but that of Strategic Marketing/ Direction.

Here is some latest domestic market information:
https://m.dpreview.com/news/0966656...canon-dominates-dslrs-tops-sony-in-mirrorless

I think Thom is being somewhat optimistic on curved sensors ..... but if by some miracle, Nikon surprised us later this year with a curved sensor FF Mirrorless and purpose designed PF(c) 600mm f4, I'd be a paid up member for life! o:D



Chosun :gh:
 
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I did wonder last year if the none launch of the DL and the continued wind-down of the 1 series was an indication Nikon wanted a clean sheet for a mirrorless range launch.
I know they closed factories and that put production stress on the ones that were left but they said the market wasn't right for 1 inch sensor compact/bridge cameras, Panasonic and Sony may disagree with that.
One interesting patent was for a 2x crop lens i think that means m4/3 3:)
 
I did wonder last year if the none launch of the DL and the continued wind-down of the 1 series was an indication Nikon wanted a clean sheet for a mirrorless range launch.
I know they closed factories [...]

These factories were probably unable to produce the new curved sensors for the improved Nikon 1+ series. ;)
 
I did wonder last year if the none launch of the DL and the continued wind-down of the 1 series was an indication Nikon wanted a clean sheet for a mirrorless range launch.
I know they closed factories and that put production stress on the ones that were left but they said the market wasn't right for 1 inch sensor compact/bridge cameras, Panasonic and Sony may disagree with that.
One interesting patent was for a 2x crop lens i think that means m4/3 3:)
I think cancelling the DL series was the right move. The 1" fixed lens market needs to be done exceptionally well (like the Sony RX10 IV) - you can't just turn up and collect $200 just for passing GO - that whole 'compact' (well slightly larger than compact sensor) market is gone (as far as profitability and efficient use of resources goes). Smartphones with rapidly progressing technology and computational photography will own that arena, and they would've done nothing to address MFT etc.

Between Nikon's Mirrorless APS-C and the "1" series which they need to resurrect and do properly, they've got it covered from a pocketable compact camera, a compact system, long telephoto (with suitable 1 series adapters), low light high IQ and a relatively small system with APS-C (certainly not much, if any, physically bigger than MFT)

The DL line would have done nothing to trump the class leading (and defining I would say) Sony RX10 IV. They really need to benchmark that and beat it. I think such a 1" bridge camera with great IQ (stacked BSI CMOS), and cutting edge phase detect AF that will handle BIF with long AND f-a-s-t lens (600 ~ 800mm f4 + in-camera crop) that also stretches to have a useful wide angle (20 ~ 24mm f2) and great 4K video is a fantastic niche to be in. It pretty much negates a lot of MFT. Ideally a curved sensor iteration would slay it, and the sensor could do double duty in the "new" "1" series system as well. Could Nikon have gotten out of China due to plans in this area and Intellectual Property concerns ?? :cat: :cat:

That still leaves room for their Uber zoom P900 (or 1000 successor) to exist alongside.

The two-tiered Mirroless approach I suggested for both FF and DX formats covers the rest of the competition.

The 2x crop patent is a bit bizarre and unecessary. I sure hope they don't go there ..... The rest of the formats done well as I have outlined will out compete that crowded segment.


Chosun :gh:
 
I think cancelling the DL series was the right move. The 1" fixed lens market needs to be done exceptionally well (like the Sony RX10 IV) - you can't just turn up and collect $200 just for passing GO - that whole 'compact' (well slightly larger than compact sensor) market is gone (as far as profitability and efficient use of resources goes). Smartphones with rapidly progressing technology and computational photography will own that arena, and they would've done nothing to address MFT etc.

Between Nikon's Mirrorless APS-C and the "1" series which they need to resurrect and do properly, they've got it covered from a pocketable compact camera, a compact system, long telephoto (with suitable 1 series adapters), low light high IQ and a relatively small system with APS-C (certainly not much, if any, physically bigger than MFT)

The DL line would have done nothing to trump the class leading (and defining I would say) Sony RX10 IV. They really need to benchmark that and beat it. I think such a 1" bridge camera with great IQ (stacked BSI CMOS), and cutting edge phase detect AF that will handle BIF with long AND f-a-s-t lens (600 ~ 800mm f4 + in-camera crop) that also stretches to have a useful wide angle (20 ~ 24mm f2) and great 4K video is a fantastic niche to be in. It pretty much negates a lot of MFT. Ideally a curved sensor iteration would slay it, and the sensor could do double duty in the "new" "1" series system as well. Could Nikon have gotten out of China due to plans in this area and Intellectual Property concerns ?? :cat: :cat:

That still leaves room for their Uber zoom P900 (or 1000 successor) to exist alongside.

The two-tiered Mirroless approach I suggested for both FF and DX formats covers the rest of the competition.

The 2x crop patent is a bit bizarre and unecessary. I sure hope they don't go there ..... The rest of the formats done well as I have outlined will out compete that crowded segment.


Chosun :gh:

If they go with the 2x crop (m4/3) ime sure they will be able to make it none compatible with other m4/3.:t:

P900 replacement i want.

CX although i would have liked to stay with it lack of development and backward steps like removing the EVF on the V3 pushed me into m4/3.
The reason ime happy to drop sensor size is even on DX and still with m4/3 most of my images get cropped so ime not really dropping sensor size.
 
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