Canon SX60HS in Action (6 Viewers)

crazyfingers · Jan 19, 2015

CalvinFold said:
About time I start drifting towards learning enough to second-guess the camera or even try Manual mode, right?

Because the leaves are down it's more possible that I could spot something down in the woods that I might not have seen in the summer, I have been experimenting with manual focus because inevitably there are at least some twig between me and the critter several hundred feet away that the camera will focus on instead of the critter. At that distance just too many twigs to fit the focus rectangle though. Most I can't even see with naked eyes.

So far I can't see using manual focus very often. Getting set up to do it takes several cumbersome button presses and even then pressing the up/down and spinning the wheel takes a lot of time. The critter would have to be something that sits reasonably still for at least a few minutes.

So far I have been experimenting on boulders at least 300 feet away and that's still quite hard.

Commenting on the SX50 as I do not have an SX60.

CalvinFold · Jan 19, 2015

Oh when I said "manual mode," I meant manually controlling aperture, ISO, and shutter speed (plus exposure compensation) rather than letting the camera do parts of that ("M" mode dial, instead of Tv, Av, or P).

Right now I use Tv + EV (letting the camera handle aperture and ISO). I plan to start experimenting with Tv + EV + ISO and only letting the camera adjust aperture (i.e. turn of Safety Shift).

Focus, I let the camera do it. The SX60's manual focus really isn't much to speak of, and as you said, clumsy. Besides, I've shot through fences and brush pretty well so far with autofocus.

crazyfingers · Jan 19, 2015

CalvinFold said:
Oh when I said "manual mode," I meant manually controlling aperture, ISO, and shutter speed (plus exposure compensation) rather than letting the camera do parts of that ("M" mode dial, instead of Tv, Av, or P).

Right now I use Tv + EV (letting the camera handle aperture and ISO). I plan to start experimenting with Tv + EV + ISO and only letting the camera adjust aperture (i.e. turn of Safety Shift).

Focus, I let the camera do it. The SX60's manual focus really isn't much to speak of, and as you said, clumsy. Besides, I've shot through fences and brush pretty well so far with autofocus.

The camera (SX50) is a master of getting the focus though the twigs just by the small size a hole the rectangle can fit. I presume the 60 is too. What I'm talking about is the extremes. 500 feet though twigs and stuff. And what I'm actually trying to prepare myself for is to catch the rare coyote, fox, fisher or bobcat that I know are in my woods but I almost never see. But in the winter I have a better chance of seeing just because I can see farther into the woods. But without manual focus could never get a large enough hole to get the rectangle though.

kawwauser · Jan 19, 2015

I was out and about today in very good light, I left the safety shift off most of the day,i found a most of the pics were wrongly exposed, given the lighting conditions the pics were taken 1/400-1/500 tv mode ,exposure compensation sorted this out but obviously took some precious time,later I came across a squirrel sitting in a feeder about 35 feet away,it was dark around the feeder but the light was right on the feeder,i zoomed in but couldn't focus,i zoomed out but no joy,i switched the camera off/on but again no joy,i switched the 1.6 converter off but nothing,i then switched the safety shift back on and focused first time ?looking back on my earlier pics from today most of the deleted ones were out of focus,the other problem I found today was the high iso range which this camera pics on auto iso,the slightest shade and it was iso 1600, auto on my sx 40 usually resulted in iso 400 max,i think that getting to grips with the iso can finally crack this camera,i took lots of pics today (my dslr is on hold while im getting to grips with this camera)I was again blown away by the power of the zoom,ill post more about this as I post the pics tomorrow ,the pic below is straight out of the camera with only resizing applied

CalvinFold · Jan 20, 2015

kawwauser,

Your experience more or less mirrors mine...well except I haven't had any autofocus problems, even in shade. I use the center-weighted metering and the setting that has the metering and autofocus use the same spot.

And yeah, my trip out yesterday convinced me the camera does wacky things with the ISO. I set mine to limit it to no more than ISO 800, but more regularly instead of leaving the ISO on a white bird in good lighting at 100, it bumps it higher to 200 or above, which makes no sense because even EV -1.3 can't stop the bird from becoming a white blob (the histogram/dynamic range is good but the whites are just flashed-out).

I suspect an issue with my metering settings (maybe I should go back to "matrix" metering?) or just wonky programming (in which case I'll just take-over the ISO, thank-you-very-much).

Obviously, they didn't have birders in mind (which is odd given the SX50's reputation among birders) so the SX60 may have the capabilities, but the team in charge of the automated logic/decision-making was apparently aiming at some competing goal to ours.

I managed to bend the old Coolpix 4500 and a slow scope to my needs, I just need more time with the SX60 to get what I want. ;-p

crazyfingers · Jan 20, 2015

CalvinFold said:
kawwauser,

Obviously, they didn't have birders in mind (which is odd given the SX50's reputation among birders) so the SX60 may have the capabilities, but the team in charge of the automated logic/decision-making was apparently aiming at some competing goal to ours.

This idea is probably far-fetched but I think the SX60 has an astronomy setting. The SX50 does not. I wonder if adding that required some logic changes that impact birding.

kawwauser · Jan 20, 2015

ill double check the autofocus/safety shift situation next time I am out,ill also experiment with the iso,below is another straight out the camera shot only resized,1/500 iso 400,safety shift on

mzettie · Jan 20, 2015

CalvinFold said:
kawwauser,

Your experience more or less mirrors mine...well except I haven't had any autofocus problems, even in shade. I use the center-weighted metering and the setting that has the metering and autofocus use the same spot.

And yeah, my trip out yesterday convinced me the camera does wacky things with the ISO. I set mine to limit it to no more than ISO 800, but more regularly instead of leaving the ISO on a white bird in good lighting at 100, it bumps it higher to 200 or above, which makes no sense because even EV -1.3 can't stop the bird from becoming a white blob (the histogram/dynamic range is good but the whites are just flashed-out).

I suspect an issue with my metering settings (maybe I should go back to "matrix" metering?) or just wonky programming (in which case I'll just take-over the ISO, thank-you-very-much).

Obviously, they didn't have birders in mind (which is odd given the SX50's reputation among birders) so the SX60 may have the capabilities, but the team in charge of the automated logic/decision-making was apparently aiming at some competing goal to ours.

I managed to bend the old Coolpix 4500 and a slow scope to my needs, I just need more time with the SX60 to get what I want. ;-p

Kevin, I admire your patience and stick-to-it-ness, and have no doubt you'll maximize whatever's there to be had in the SX60......but I can't help but wonder if the camera's worthy of your effort.

HermitIbis · Jan 20, 2015

CalvinFold said:
[...] instead of leaving the ISO on a white bird in good lighting at 100, it bumps it higher to 200 or above, which makes no sense because even EV -1.3 can't stop the bird from becoming a white blob (the histogram/dynamic range is good but the whites are just flashed-out)

The SX50 has a problem with clipping whites, too. When I meet a dipper, I dial in -2/3 for ev. Two days ago I thought I had nice pictures of the bird, but -2/3 wasn't enough - no detail in whites.

CalvinFold · Jan 20, 2015

mzettie said:
Kevin, I admire your patience and stick-to-it-ness, and have no doubt you'll maximize whatever's there to be had in the SX60......but I can't help but wonder if the camera's worthy of your effort.

The reach makes it worth it...I'm getting better photos at the same ranges that I did digiscoping, and I don't have to set-up a bunch of heavy gear and stay in one spot to do it...I can actually move. I could never shoot BiF before, either.

I'm getting the best of both worlds at a price I could manage.

Really, this is no more or less trouble than I had on my previous setup trying to maximize the capabilities.

Robert L Jarvis · Jan 20, 2015

Out of interest regards the ISO, I wonder if one put a positive vale for the EV how would the ISO react to that, just curious. I suppose it will probably still blow the whites. Will it lower itself?

CalvinFold · Jan 20, 2015

Robert L Jarvis said:
Out of interest regards the ISO, I wonder if one put a positive vale for the EV how would the ISO react to that, just curious. I suppose it will probably still blow the whites. Will it lower itself?

Might work to trick the camera, but the histogram would get moved to the right and probably still clip the whites. Pretty sure I tried this and got horrible results. I know leaving EV in neutral didn't work at all.

My current running values, that at least get me unclipped shots more than the defaults:

1/400s + -1.0 EV
1/500s + -0.6 EV

Next time out I'm trying some new tips I found on a birding photographer's site, someone who prefers shutter priority (not aperture priority, which seems the preferred method for birders).

kawwauser · Jan 21, 2015

some pics I took on Monday,the first pic was taken at full 247mm with the 1.6 converter switched on,the sparrow was on a feeder in someone's garden and to the naked eye I first thought it might be a finch,a quick check through my binoculars (Nikon 8x42)and I could see it was a sparrow but it was impossible to tell what kind,i decided to take a record shot and ended up with this pic,this is the smallest bird I photographed at this distance and was pleased to see I had actually caught the eye,tv mode iso 400,the next 2 pics are straight out the camera with only resizing applied,the last pic the robin was taken in the shade with the safety switch turned on and the iso shot up to 1600,obviously far to high,i have been checking through my sx 40 pics and most were iso 100-200,im going to try limiting my sx 60 to 400 max next time I am out

birdboybowley · Jan 22, 2015

I've limited my ISO to 800 in less than ideal conditions, but in sunny conditions I limit it to 100. Like today, put it on Auto to see what the camera would choose and surprise surprise it chose 800 even for a full-sun BiF shot against a blue sky. Manually put it down to 100 and the resulting quality of shot was 10x better. Bizarre why it does this - actually it's a f**cking pain in the arse. Don't understand what was going through Canon's mind...do they not listen to their customers?

Roy C · Jan 22, 2015

CalvinFold said:
Might work to trick the camera, but the histogram would get moved to the right and probably still clip the whites. Pretty sure I tried this and got horrible results. I know leaving EV in neutral didn't work at all.

My current running values, that at least get me unclipped shots more than the defaults:

1/400s + -1.0 EV
1/500s + -0.6 EV

There is no 'one setting fits all' when it comes to Ev comp, each scenario must be calculated on its own merits. Examples, a dark bird where there is strong back-light may take up to +3 to expose the bird correctly (and ETTR) whereas a light bird that is in strong sunlight may need a minus Ev comp to be correctly exposed. To get the best dynamic range If shooting in RAW the aim should be to just about clip the highlights (ETTR) - if shooting in jpeg you should ease back a tad as you cannot recover overexposed parts of the image as good as in RAW.

CalvinFold · Jan 23, 2015

Roy C:
Yeah, point taken, and I already understood that--there's never going to be a magic bullet. I'm just fiddling around trying to find the "base settings" that maximize the dynamic range for most shots so I don't have to think too hard except on tougher shots...so I can go "ooh bird flying" and start shooting without fiddling with settings and losing the shot. Or when I adjust the camera for a specific shot, knowing what I should return the camera to when done to maximize spur-of-the-moment shooting.

I freely admit I need to jump into RAW soon. First I need to see how slow the camera is for bursts using RAW--I planned ahead and bought a memory card on the faster side. I lean heavily on burst photography to "capture the moment." But for white birds, RAW might be worth it for the extra flexibility to squeeze a bit more detail.

The local pair of white-tailed kites (if they are still there this year) generally make great "fiddle with the camera" subjects if I can catch them resting or just finished eating (and preening). They are basically still or moving only in short moments for 1-2 hours, which lets me do all kinds of experiments with settings and practice technique on a known subject in relatively static poses. Closest I can come to controlled conditions with a tricky subject (contrasty bird in lower-light/near-sunrise conditions). I just haven't had the weather or opportunity to try to see them since I bought the SX60.

kawwauser seems to be experimenting just like I am, so I'm watching that carefully for ideas as well.

kawwauser · Jan 26, 2015

another 2 straight out the camera shots,the only 2 I got like this,the others will need some minor editing,after a days shooting I like to finish with a good walk (min 4 miles) which leaves me tired hence not posting the pics on the day I took them

CalvinFold · Jan 27, 2015

I actually found the white-tailed kites this past weekend, but not in their usual spot and they were backlit and in severe shadows, so my photography knowledge being what it is, I didn't get good shots from the SX60.

I did however take 40+ shots with fixed aperture and various ISO and shutter speeds (without exposure compensation) on a known real-world target, at full zoom, in the same lighting, on the tripod, which made for some interesting information once I got it all into Excel to look at.

Basically:

If I choose the shutter speed and ISO, and let the camera choose the aperture, it's pretty good at choosing the aperture. I found that the histogram can be fairly balanced without resorting to exposure compensation. For a basic balanced scene I think I can make a pretty accurate guess of the proper ISO based on shutter speed now.
If I choose the shutter speed and leave it to the camera to choose aperture and ISO, the camera is insane. It wants to wipe-out highlights. Probably okay on an overall landscape, horrible for any bird with alot of white.
Boy the SX60's logic hates hot highlights. Even with center-weighted metering, it will see a white bird like an egret, or a round white storage tank, that is already getting alot of sun, and choose a higher ISO. It was taking shots that would have worked at 100 ISO and used 160, 250, and more ISO. WTH?
I can only guess than instead of ETTR, which I am trying to do to maximize dynamic range (so worrying about "pretty" in post), the camera is going for more consumer-oriented "pretty right from the camera."
White birds and bright scenes still benefit from -1/3 or -2/3 EV by default, the histogram needs the nudge to the left. I'd use -1/3 if you know your ISO + Shutter Speed comfortably, -2/3 if you want to be safe or are letting the camera do more of the work guessing exposure.

Additionally, I finally gave RAW a chance. Unfortunately, even with a fairly fast memory card, it pretty much kills the burst rate, and I rely on burst too much to catch birds in action or BiF. So RAW is only useful on subjects that sit still for a while and to line-up the perfect photo. I hope to catch the kites in their eating/grooming spot some day to try this out.

That being said, the RAW data is pretty much as bad as the JPEG...it's no solution to the highlight clipping. It does make the photos a bit more "rescuable" in Photoshop. So no panacea (which I did realize, but was curious).

New to me though: using Photoshop Camera RAW on JPEG images. I just remembered the technique this week and sat down and gave it a try, and it's definitely going to change my post-processing workflow. I was using Photoshop adjustment layers (mostly Levels and Brightness/Contrast), but Camera RAW is much better at it.

Hope this all helps the SX60 users watching.

kawwauser · Jan 27, 2015

kevin I came to the same conclusion regarding the sx 60 choosing the iso while out shooting yesterday, allowing the sx 60 to choose the iso and giving the camera a range of up to 1600 is certainly not the way to go,i had very good light while I was out yesterday and set the iso limit to 400,the camera never once went below 400 which surprised me,on my sx 40 the auto iso with no set limit worked perfectly, I was happy with nearly all the pics I took and even managed a couple of handheld shots with the 2.00 converter on,the only pics I deleted were out of focus/birds moving off etc,later in the day and with the light fading I came across a distant perched kestrel,i dropped the shutter speed down to 1/250 thinking they would end up being deleted but after adding some contrast and highlighting adjustments I think the pic ended up being not to shappy considering the lighting and distance (206.61)the first robin pic below was taken with the 1.6 converter and cropped ,the second pic taken from the same spot with the 2,0 converter and uncropped ,both pics handheld

kawwauser · Feb 2, 2015

a couple of quickly edited shots from today

Canon SX60HS in Action (6 Viewers)

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