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Gleb Berloff
Guest
And compare this with lanius collurio, which used to be everywhere. Look at them now...
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And compare this with lanius collurio, which used to be everywhere. Look at them now...
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Gleb, I'd recommend following all laws, rules, codes of ethics, and good practice. No photograph or observation in the world is worth breaking those. You don't want to be on the wrong side of the ledger .....
Chosun :gh:
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Gleb Berloff
Guest
Its not like I don't already. I would never intentionally disturb a bird. If I stumbled on a nest, I would retire to a safe distance, then make an observation. I just don't understand why a permit is needed to do simple photographs, unless they are right near the nest. And what ledger are you talking about?
But Lakenheath allows bitterns to be imaged in their breeding habitat...
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Gleb Berloff
Guest
People might start thinking me as an etiquette breaker, who doesn't get permits to take pictures in breeding habitats, and who takes pictures of nests from kilometers away. But I would never disturb any bird.
I just don't understand why- lets say there is a law preventing to take pictures of hazel grouse in breeding habitat. So what, I'm not allowed to take pictures of a forest in which they reside, or of them if I stumble on them? I never search for nests, and would never even try. Because I know that would disturb them.
Or take images of bitterns in Lakenheath simply because they nest there? Or take pictures of the local peregrines simply because they nest on a building I often take pictures of them on? Or take images of barn owls in places where they breed? This is the first time I have heard of this, and simply don't understand the logic of it. Nests I understand perfectly well, no questions from me. But breeding habitats?
I just don't understand why- lets say there is a law preventing to take pictures of hazel grouse in breeding habitat. So what, I'm not allowed to take pictures of a forest in which they reside, or of them if I stumble on them? I never search for nests, and would never even try. Because I know that would disturb them.
Or take images of bitterns in Lakenheath simply because they nest there? Or take pictures of the local peregrines simply because they nest on a building I often take pictures of them on? Or take images of barn owls in places where they breed? This is the first time I have heard of this, and simply don't understand the logic of it. Nests I understand perfectly well, no questions from me. But breeding habitats?
dantheman
Bah humbug
Schedule 1 Birds:
https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-w...e-law/wildlife-and-countryside-act/schedules/
Nature Photographers Code:
https://www.cbwps.org.uk/cbwpsword/...3/Nature-Photographers-Code-of-Practice-1.pdf
https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-w...e-law/wildlife-and-countryside-act/schedules/
Nature Photographers Code:
https://www.cbwps.org.uk/cbwpsword/...3/Nature-Photographers-Code-of-Practice-1.pdf
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Bottom line, it's the law, in the best interests of the birds so you don't need to understand.
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Gleb Berloff
Guest
Thanks for that. Of course I'll aim to minimise and nullify disturbance. My next planned trip is to Barranc del Sinc and Montcabrer for vultures and eagles in Spain.
In regards to the peregrines here, I've kept their nest site safe for a long time. They are being photographed all the time, and do not even notice anyone, living next to a busy road.
I've looked at the document and read it over. I never did any of the following, and don't plan to do. So there's no need to worry at all. 0% risk of disturbance from me. I am especially careful now.
In regards to birds, what are your worst species for photography?
P.S. brace for Storm Ciara, friends. It's almost here, and looks to be one heckuva storm. Be careful
In regards to the peregrines here, I've kept their nest site safe for a long time. They are being photographed all the time, and do not even notice anyone, living next to a busy road.
I've looked at the document and read it over. I never did any of the following, and don't plan to do. So there's no need to worry at all. 0% risk of disturbance from me. I am especially careful now.
In regards to birds, what are your worst species for photography?
P.S. brace for Storm Ciara, friends. It's almost here, and looks to be one heckuva storm. Be careful
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Gleb Berloff
Guest
I'm confused. Nests- I agree completely. Requesting paid licenses to photograph say bitterns in reedbeds is extremely strange. Or trying to locate orioles.
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Gleb Berloff
Guest
I always act in the best interests of the birds. Just want to understand why breeding habitat restrictions are requested.
dantheman
Bah humbug
Think there are two issues here - photographing birds at the nest, and photographing birds in the breeding season, and they are different, true.
I guess folk are worried as you seemed not too concerned about tape-luring earlier etc. But from what you've been saying I'm sure you're generally in the right place. As it says in the document above, it's the welfare of the bird that comes first - what can be a problem is individual humans deciding what is and isn't in the birds best interests contrary to the advice of eg the RSPB etc.
I would agree with you that sensitively photographing rarer birds in the breeding season is not illegal - nor is it going to be especially wrong, bad or immoral. Just bear in mind the birds may be nesting nearby, you don't know it and you do end up causing stress or harm.
Common sense prevails - traipsing off into a reedbed where Bitterns occur in summer to take photographs is obviously wrong (even if you don't know where an actual nest is), photographing from a hide/public footpathpath isn't etc ... photographing hunting Barn Owls cool, climbing a tree to try and photograph even a commoner species on the nest ... wrong.
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PYRTLE
Old Berkshire Boy
I'm sure you do care, and also would not wish to disturb any breeding species just please read the relevant Schedules and guidelines. Regrettably some over zealous birders and photographers do cause problems at sensitive sites in pursuit of their hobby.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAaegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2Zn77d7y8Rs5l3A7dzE0ds
There is a marked difference from photographing say a White Tailed Eagle's nest from say 100 metres compared to within 25 metres when you're mere prescence could alarm the parents or youngsters.
All the best. Oh, there is a phrase sometimes used, " Ignorantia juris non excusat" or simply put ( Ignorance is no defense ).
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Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Farnboro John
Well-known member
The worst birds to Photograph:
1. Golden Oriole
Hungary. From hide (photographing Bee-eaters) - Golden Oriole family group just passed through,
foraging.
Migrant, Shetland (twitch by considerable number of birders. Patience and bird showed in garden.)
2. Cuckoo
The legendary Colin at Thursley X 3…. this boy comes to you, provided you have mealworms....
John
1. Golden Oriole
Hungary. From hide (photographing Bee-eaters) - Golden Oriole family group just passed through,
foraging.
Migrant, Shetland (twitch by considerable number of birders. Patience and bird showed in garden.)
2. Cuckoo
The legendary Colin at Thursley X 3…. this boy comes to you, provided you have mealworms....
John
Attachments
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Farnboro John
Well-known member
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
Agree - except the trouble is, the law can't take common sense into account. Technically, it is illegal to take a photo of an Avocet's nest from a RSPB hide window without a schedule 1 licence, because (from the photo) it is impossible to prove that you didn't disturb the bird in doing so. An individual judge might (or might not!) agree with your plea, but the law doesn't.
dantheman
Bah humbug
Sorry, yes, probably worth the clarification - I wasn't referring to photographing eg a Bittern on a nest, but a bird in a breeding habitat, which was I think what Gleb was referring to.
(There is an inherent trickiness that certain circumstances such as Avocets as you mention you couldn't, legally, take even a scenic photo (?) from a public hide if there were birds nesting, but hey ...)
It is also worth noting perhaps that sites such as here on BF and other responsible sites (eg County Bird club websites) don't allow or actively discourage the publication of all birds on nests - best to blanket ban. Putting up photos of bird nests or eggs on social media, even by people holding the appropriate licences or BTO types is also problematic - because often they fail to mention they have a licence, and it actively encourages others to want to do likewise.
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Gleb Berloff
Guest
Its exactly the same with the peregrines here. I often take pictures of them from across the street, often on their nest site ledge. I don't disturb them, nor have I seen any of them even look down at someone passing beneath their nest.
The rule is sound in most circumstances, but as narrow-minded as a bacterium in another. I guess the solution is simply take images from a large distance- or, even better only allow this from a hide, unless distance is obvious. On my image of the WTE nest I have in my gallery, it is obvious that was from a massive distance in what might be one of the widest parts of the Volga river.
I'd say take images only if you are sure you don't disturb the birds, only from 50+ meters, higher for shy species, and at lower distances only from a hide. The above illegality is pretty stupid, to be honest, but the logic is sound. I often fume at the fact that a lovely reserve in Russia does not allow photography, and similarly wouldn't care if I visited as I know am extremely careful, but that was put into place because of recorded disturbance. It kind of goes both ways, doesn't it?
And in some places it is impossible not to disturb birds. I walk in the forest near my former village often and there's this one woodpecker who I keep spooking. I never see it until it starts screaming and flying. I guess that's about intentional disturbance. the logic is sound, but is also ridiculous at times.
And with my camera at least, a significant drop in uqlity starts if I zoom in, so ti is very obvious whether I took the image at LR or SR. A lot of people have complained here about my camera on the ID forum...
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Gleb Berloff
Guest
What about taking an image of a hen harrier?
What they really need to focus on is getting people of the boardwalk at Sedge fen when they come into roost there!! I get furious every time I see them on the boardwalk there, especially with screaming children! I gave up a lot of effort to get there, and...
Or cracking down on certain trigger happy HH bucketheads when they shoot them!!
Seriously? I say I will take images of rare birds in breeding habitats, but never near the nest. Or am I not allowed to go into Lynford arboretum because hawfinch breed there? And take images? It should be narrowed to nests, honestly. Otherwise, all lovely wTE images I've seen are illegal from Mull and so forth, which is ridiculous...
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Gleb Berloff
Guest
Of course. I'm not talking nests- If I see one I won't go anywhere near it. Of course this excludes the birds that nest annually on the antenna of my house!! Or the peregrines- I sometimes have to go through there, 10m from the nest.
I'm talking breeding habitats. I care about the birds, true. And, again, say I went for a walk in the forest, saw a capercaillie and took a picture. Its in its breeding habitat! So why the ban? That's what I say I don't care about. The news caught me a little off guard...
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Gleb Berloff
Guest
I never actually tried it, tape luring, to be honest. Just said it could be done as an idea, before I learned that it was bad for them. Like I said, the oriole I found took patience and calmness, and nothing else. And when I was observing it, I did not spook it at all...
And yes, I always keep that in mind. Like I said, I'm visiting Barranc del Sinc soon for vultures, and I won't go anywhere near nests there.
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