Should professional bird tour guides use long-lens cameras? (1 Viewer)

John Cantelo · Feb 25, 2020

On a recent birding trip, the tour leader firmly expressed the opinion that, as a professional bird tour leader, he never carried a camera. He argued that people had paid him a lot of money to find and show them birds and that faffing around with a camera would only distract him and compromise his role. Has he got a point or is it an unreasonable demand? I don't think it's a big problem if guides have a handy bridge camera and grab the odd photo but wonder how far those with expensive SLR kits are willing to limit themselves to benefit clients. I've heard stories about some guides seemingly caring more about getting that shot than getting folks onto the bird. So, should (or perhaps do) bird tour companies have a policy on this with a no-camera rule for leaders (unless bird photography is a big element of the trip)? Note that word 'professional', if the leader isn't paid (as I think may sometimes be the case) then I think different rules may apply.

wildoat · Feb 25, 2020

Interesting question, I know of just a few photographic landscape guides who won't take photos whilst teaching/guiding I guess it depends on what's agreed before hand, presumably if the guide is using time to take their own photos the price of what they offer should/ could be reduced! On the other hand if the guide is employed just to find locations/birds maybe it's different, I suspect there aren't any hard and fast rules and they make it up as they go along, this should be with the agreement from their paying clients perhaps.

opisska · Feb 25, 2020

I don't usually take paid guides, but when birding in a groups, I appreciate being around people with cameras - because they can actually show me the bird, including where it is, on the back of the camera. It's fast and exact - I do the same when birding with one of my friends who only carries binos usually and we complement each other really well.

Having a big camera does not necessarily mean going for great pictures - if the guide uses it just as a tool for locating and showing the birds, I think it can be great.

edenwatcher · Feb 25, 2020

Also part of the guiding "package" can mean clients receiving a trip report at the end illustrated with lots of nice photos...

Rob

John Cantelo · Feb 25, 2020

edenwatcher said:
Also part of the guiding "package" can mean clients receiving a trip report at the end illustrated with lots of nice photos...

Rob

Personally, a trip report with nice photos comes well down my wants list when I've been on a trip particularly if getting the photos means I don't get the service on the trip I might otherwise have done. It's nice but not necessary besides any photos could just as well be provided by clients.

John Cantelo · Feb 25, 2020

opisska said:
I don't usually take paid guides, but when birding in a groups, I appreciate being around people with cameras - because they can actually show me the bird, including where it is, on the back of the camera. It's fast and exact - I do the same when birding with one of my friends who only carries binos usually and we complement each other really well.

Having a big camera does not necessarily mean going for great pictures - if the guide uses it just as a tool for locating and showing the birds, I think it can be great.

An interesting idea but although I regularly go birding with people with long-lens cameras I struggle to think of any occasion when photos were a help in seeing a bird.

edenwatcher · Feb 25, 2020

John Cantelo said:
Personally, a trip report with nice photos comes well down my wants list when I've been on a trip particularly if getting the photos means I don't get the service on the trip I might otherwise have done. It's nice but not necessary besides any photos could just as well be provided by clients.

Agreed. I have no objection to them taking photos - provided it is not at the expense of clients seeing birds and thier overall experience.

Rob

opisska · Feb 25, 2020

John Cantelo said:
An interesting idea but although I regularly go birding with people with long-lens cameras I struggle to think of any occasion when photos were a help in seeing a bird.

Really? Maybe it's because if you are not used to cheating like this, you can describe the position well using words, unlike myself

I have had countless situations where seeing what is around the bird really helped me or someone else.

Farnboro John · Feb 25, 2020

opisska said:
Really? Maybe it's because if you are not used to cheating like this, you can describe the position well using words, unlike myself I have had countless situations where seeing what is around the bird really helped me or someone else.

Yep. Me too, especially when faced with language barriers.

But it does have to be clear that the guide is there to do the work and the time for serious photography is usually after everyone is on the bird, the exception being when a pic is for directions.

One other thing: I don't generally carry a scope, because I have my own big lens: so the guide MUST, except in the uniformly close environment. If they have the muscles to add a massive lens, fine. If not, scope only.

John

Paul Chapman · Feb 25, 2020

edenwatcher said:
Also part of the guiding "package" can mean clients receiving a trip report at the end illustrated with lots of nice photos...

Rob

I have happily consented to my photos being used as part of a tour report. I think that I have gone on three tour company trips but have hired a guide directly a few times for part or once all of a trip.

John Cantelo said:
On a recent birding trip, the tour leader firmly expressed the opinion that, as a professional bird tour leader, he never carried a camera. He argued that people had paid him a lot of money to find and show them birds and that faffing around with a camera would only distract him and compromise his role. Has he got a point or is it an unreasonable demand? I don't think it's a big problem if guides have a handy bridge camera and grab the odd photo but wonder how far those with expensive SLR kits are willing to limit themselves to benefit clients. I've heard stories about some guides seemingly caring more about getting that shot than getting folks onto the bird. So, should (or perhaps do) bird tour companies have a policy on this with a no-camera rule for leaders (unless bird photography is a big element of the trip)? Note that word 'professional', if the leader isn't paid (as I think may sometimes be the case) then I think different rules may apply.

I have been on a tour where the tour leader only had a camera and no bins.

All the best

Mysticete · Feb 25, 2020

I don't see an issue as long as their priority is still getting folks on a bird and everyone is still having fun. In fact I might actually prefer a guide to have a big fancy camera rig on a pelagic or birding Gambell or something, where getting a record shot might make the difference between a record being a accepted or not

leonardo_simon · Feb 25, 2020

My local guide in Sri Lanka did not have binoculars or any optical equipment- just a laser pointer! Seemed to find the birds by their call only!!!

Jim M. · Feb 25, 2020

It's common for pro guides to carry cameras in my experience, usually a DSLR. Some tour companies even require it because they want to have photos for the trip report. I have never seen it be a problem though; but I have heard complaints from those on other tours that a guide may get too involved in getting his own shot and forget that he is there to lead the tour.

Nightjar61 · Feb 25, 2020

I’ve been on trips where guides used a camera, and it has never been a problem. The guides on my trips that did photograph birds made sure everyone got on the bird and saw it to their satisfaction. Only then did they take their pictures. And as has been said, it’s nice getting good photos as part of the trip report. One guide even sent a CD with all his photos to the participants.

The problem arises when other tour participants are photography fanatics. They’re only interested in getting the perfect shot and they tend to make the trip rather unpleasant for others. Their behavior that I have experienced has included pushing their way in front of others, blocking the views of other participants, and holding up the group. Of course, a good guide will try to tactfully nip that in the bud.

And I have no problem when tour participants take pictures. I even try to take some myself, but I consider myself an amateur and am on the trip mainly to see the birds. It’s the abuse of the privilege that bothers me.

I have noticed that some of the birding tour companies are starting to offer bird photography trips, which should be perfect for the person who considers himself a photographer before a birder.

Dave

Jeff Hopkins · Feb 26, 2020

Jim M. said:
It's common for pro guides to carry cameras in my experience, usually a DSLR. Some tour companies even require it because they want to have photos for the trip report. I have never seen it be a problem though; but I have heard complaints from those on other tours that a guide may get too involved in getting his own shot and forget that he is there to lead the tour.

I have experienced that. In fact, I was on a tour where none of the clients were really interested in photography, but the leader was. After we'd seen a bird well, he was still taking pictures while we were ready to move on.

Farnboro John · Feb 26, 2020

Nightjar61 said:
The problem arises when other tour participants are photography fanatics. They’re only interested in getting the perfect shot and they tend to make the trip rather unpleasant for others. Their behavior that I have experienced has included pushing their way in front of others, blocking the views of other participants, and holding up the group. Of course, a good guide will try to tactfully nip that in the bud.

And I have no problem when tour participants take pictures. I even try to take some myself, but I consider myself an amateur and am on the trip mainly to see the birds. It’s the abuse of the privilege that bothers me.

Dave

You left out charging straight at the bird and flushing it before others have even seen it, let alone got their own shots.... and yes it can be a problem. One participant on a tour I was on was nicknamed "Stormtrooper" on Day One! Some straight talking sorted him out but occasional reminders were required. Everybody is eager but respect for others is essential.

John

Euan Buchan · Feb 26, 2020

I've only been on one Birding tour that was in Madeira. The guide used Binoculars and a telescope and allowed us to have a look.

rosbifs · Feb 26, 2020

Euan Buchan said:
I've only been on one Birding tour that was in Madeira. The guide used Binoculars and a telescope and allowed us to have a look.

I would hope so!

My philosophy, and I do guide in the Pyrenees, is that I have the camera for exceptional circumstances. The 'clients' have not paid to see me taking photos or to look at them.

I have used the camera to take a picture of a distant area or nest and then zoom in to help clients find a specific bird or animal.

I have used the camera to take a picture of a distant bird to confirm id.

I have taken a picture of a rarity for recording purposes.

The photos are the clients memories not mine - although I still get pleasure from finding and seeing the birds...

I carry the scope and the tripod (I generally lend another couple out), my bins and ensure that the clients all get the opportunity to see the birds through the scope or at least through their bins and take their pictures if they have cameras....

Farnboro John · Feb 26, 2020

rosbifs said:
I would hope so!

My philosophy, and I do guide in the Pyrenees, is that I have the camera for exceptional circumstances. The 'clients' have not paid to see me taking photos or to look at them.

I have used the camera to take a picture of a distant area or nest and then zoom in to help clients find a specific bird or animal.

I have used the camera to take a picture of a distant bird to confirm id.

I have taken a picture of a rarity for recording purposes.

The photos are the clients memories not mine - although I still get pleasure from finding and seeing the birds...

I carry the scope and the tripod (I generally lend another couple out), my bins and ensure that the clients all get the opportunity to see the birds through the scope or at least through their bins and take their pictures if they have cameras....

You're hired..... :t:

John

Jeff Hopkins · Feb 27, 2020

Nightjar61 said:
I’ve been on trips where guides used a camera, and it has never been a problem. The guides on my trips that did photograph birds made sure everyone got on the bird and saw it to their satisfaction. Only then did they take their pictures. And as has been said, it’s nice getting good photos as part of the trip report. One guide even sent a CD with all his photos to the participants.

The problem arises when other tour participants are photography fanatics. They’re only interested in getting the perfect shot and they tend to make the trip rather unpleasant for others. Their behavior that I have experienced has included pushing their way in front of others, blocking the views of other participants, and holding up the group. Of course, a good guide will try to tactfully nip that in the bud.

And I have no problem when tour participants take pictures. I even try to take some myself, but I consider myself an amateur and am on the trip mainly to see the birds. It’s the abuse of the privilege that bothers me.

I have noticed that some of the birding tour companies are starting to offer bird photography trips, which should be perfect for the person who considers himself a photographer before a birder.

Dave

The other thing is that many tour companies are now explicitly stating that the tours are birding first with photography coming second. And reiterating that at the start of the tour. Of course not all photographers have the instructions sink in on the first attempt.

I did have a recent trip where a photographer got to the one narrow spot in the forest where the bird could be seen and started snapping away before everyone had seen it (and there were only 5 of us!). A not so subtle smack on the shoulder with a hissed "Let everyone see it first!" gave him the message.

On another trip where the photographers blocked some patrons from seeing a challenging bird, the leader threatened to ban cameras if the photographers did it a second time.

Should professional bird tour guides use long-lens cameras? (1 Viewer)

Well-known member

Well-known member

rabid twitcher

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

rabid twitcher

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member since 2007

David Daniels

Just another...observer

Well-known member

The Edinburgh Birdwatcher

PutAin STOP

Well-known member

Just another...observer

Similar threads

Users who are viewing this thread