Kahles? (1 Viewer)

NDhunter · Nov 16, 2012

I'm thinking that some years ago, like Bob mentioned, the Kahles binoculars were made
in Austria, when they were part of Swarovski. I had an 8x42, back around 2007, but
when compared to the Swaro. 8.5x42, EL, the Swaro. simply was a great big step
better, with better brightness, and a much wider, better FOV. Now most know that
would be expected, comparing the EL with a mid-range.

I compared some specs. a while back, and it looks like they increased the FOV, maybe
went to ED glass, and have made some changes. That may be the switch to Japanese
made. I have not seen a single mention from a user, or review on the newer one.

There is a new distributor for Kahles now in the US, in Idaho, I believe, and they have posted before,
but a "Kahles" google search, leads to nothing much. I suppose communication helps.
If Eagle Optics is a retailer, they should offer some clarity. I do know they post here.

Jerry

ceasar · Nov 16, 2012

brocknroller said:
What you can say is that you own a European brand bin that's "Made in Japan".

I have no problem with that, I like Japanese optics, they used to be "Best Buys", but now with the yen/dollar thang, top Chinbins are better buys (the dollar has recently strengthened, so perhaps we'll see prices coming down).

When you do a review, which you should put in the equipment review section since it will get buried in this thread, please have somebody else take a look through the bins and comment on the CA control since you are apparently immune to CA. That was one of allbinos negatives "Medium in the centre, significant on the edge". This might be due to how short they are. The shorter the FL, the higher the CA it seems. That would be my biggest concerns, being sensitive to CA.

Arek rated the edges at 78%, does that still hold up with the wider FOV? If so, that would be a larger sweet spot.

A strong point was no vignetting of the exit pupils, which is fairly common midsized roofs even some in the $1,000 category. Since the body is identical, I'm wondering if the prisms could handle the wider EPs?

How is the color balance? Is it "warm," "cold" or "neutral"? Although Arek did liken the light graph to the EL, the EL's transmission extends further on the red end before taking a steep nose dive whereas the Kahles falls off earlier but has a more gradual slope on the red end.

P.S. Please elaborate on this statement:

But the Kahles is at least as good and better in some respects than both my Swarovski (2010) SLC 8 x 30 WB and my Nikon 8 x 32 LXL/HGL are

Thanks.

Brock,

What I CAN say is that I made that statement about them being made in Western Europe (see thread # 17 above), which you refer to in your first paragraph, before I knew they were outsourced to Japan. Like everybody else here except Jan. Keep that stuff up and to paraphrase Churchill "you will manage to give journalists a bad name!"

I've used the binocular for nearly 6 months now. I usually take my time with reviews. I will have one out shortly and probably will put it in the equipment section as you suggested and link it here. Another alternative is to put it here with an easy title so it can be located easily in the search forum (if such a thing can be done:stuck

and link this thread to it.

If you look at the pictures of the Kahles you can see that it is slightly wider in the middle of the objective tubes than at the ends. Perhaps that is an indication that the prisms are sufficiently wide enough to handle the wider EPs? Although, I don't think they are wider or even different from the originals, just more of the lens is exposed. At any rate the FOV is wider, about the same as the SLC 8 x 30 and the Nikon 8 x 32-that is about 411' rather than 399' @ 1000 yards of the earlier model. Not really significant IMO but clearly wider than the Nikon 8 x 32 SE's 393 feet. It's center field sweet spot is about 80% with a slow taper off to the edge. It has slight pincushioning on the edges.

I will have to address the other questions when I do the review.

Bob

blizdas · Nov 16, 2012

There is a new distributor for Kahles now in the US, in Idaho, I believe, and they have posted before,
but a "Kahles" google search, leads to nothing much. I suppose communication helps.
If Eagle Optics is a retailer, they should offer some clarity. I do know they post here.

Jerry[/QUOTE]

Someone PM'd me and asked that I chime in on what we know about the brand here at Eagle Optics. I'm really going to only report on what Khales tells us, rather than what we may speculate about country of origin, etc. I have not visited any of factories overseas myself.
I have a box of the current Khales 8x42's at my desk. The box states "Made In Austria". On the binocular itself, it simply states Khales Austria, no "made in" reference on the binocular itself.

Regarding some of the changes made to the binocular since it's previous generation, here is what someone from Khales in Austria told us:

By using bi-electric prism system we reach a light transmission bigger than 90%
Through the use of a Magnesium body we reduced weight significantly to offer one of the lightest bino in the market
Oil and dust resistant outside lenses
A very close focus

I realize it's not a lot of useful information and that's all we've got, but it's what we were told directly from Khales. What I can confirm is that the optics on the new model are indeed nicer than the Khales binoculars I saw 7 years ago or so.
Cheers,
Ben

Ben Lizdas
Sales Manager
www.eagleotpics.com

brocknroller · Nov 16, 2012

blizdas said:
T

Someone PM'd me and asked that I chime in on what we know about the brand here at Eagle Optics. I'm really going to only report on what Khales tells us, rather than what we may speculate about country of origin, etc. I have not visited any of factories overseas myself.
I have a box of the current Khales 8x42's at my desk. The box states "Made In Austria". On the binocular itself, it simply states Khales Austria, no "made in" reference on the binocular itself.

Regarding some of the changes made to the binocular since it's previous generation, here is what someone from Khales in Austria told us:

By using bi-electric prism system we reach a light transmission bigger than 90%
Through the use of a Magnesium body we reduced weight significantly to offer one of the lightest bino in the market
Oil and dust resistant outside lenses
A very close focus

I realize it's not a lot of useful information and that's all we've got, but it's what we were told directly from Khales. What I can confirm is that the optics on the new model are indeed nicer than the Khales binoculars I saw 7 years ago or so.
Cheers,
Ben

Ben Lizdas
Sales Manager
www.eagleotpics.com

Click to expand...

Ben,

Thanks for that info. Now we know at least the box is "Made in Austria".

Perhaps Austrian companies are allowed to bend the truth a bit about "country of origin" if the bins are assembled in Austria. But it's curious they wouldn't come out and say they were made in Japan, if that's the story. Japanese optics are nothing to be ashamed of, some of the best in the world, and making them in Japan probably reduces the cost compared to manufacturing them in Austria.

I think "dielectric" prism coating is what he meant, which is another upgrade. If they are improved from the older version, which was rated highly by allbinos, just below the 8x32 EL WB, and just above the Kowa 8x33 Genesis, they must be pretty good. Hope somebody does a review of the new version.

I didn't know about the hydrophobic coatings. You should add that to your ad description, good selling point.

Brock

brocknroller · Nov 16, 2012

I tried to find reviews of the "new and improved" Kahles bins, but only found one review by a nature photographer who won a pair at an event in Alaska. He was very bubbly about them, but had virtually no experience with bins, so fagetaboutit.

But this one is more interesting, a scanned reprint from Shooting Sports Magazine from this year (UK edition). Apparently, Kahles won "Best Binoculars" by shooters. So that tells you that they are quite sharp. The author said they compared "equally as well" to his Leica 8x56 BRFs.

http://www.opticsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/RUAG.BINO_.REVIEW1.pdf

Still need to hear from some birders. High resolution is good to hear, but what about color? contrast? flare control? CA control? These bins are made by a company known for its riflescopes. IOW, there are primarily marketed to hunters. The closer focus on the latest models (5 ft. on the 8x32 model) suggests that the company is trying to get some crossover sales from birders.

I saw an Kahles 8x42neu on ebay for $724. That's a nice a' price vs. $1,200 for the Kowa 8x33 Genesis. More pincushion than the Genesis, aber nicht zu veil.

From allbinos review, I'd say the main question is if they improved the CA control and also the QC. Arek gave the 10x42 model poor marks for QC since it had "huge specks" of dust glued to the prisms, making "them equal with the worst products from Chinese factories". Is Japanese QC slipping? Or weren't these earlier samples made in Japan, as Jerry suggested?

http://www.allbinos.com/141-binoculars_review-Kahles_10x42.html

hinnark · Nov 16, 2012

brocknroller said:
blizdas said:

Perhaps Austrian companies are allowed to bend the truth a bit about "country of origin" if the bins are assembled in Austria.
Brock

Click to expand...

That's true not only for Austrian companies. AFAIK in the EU you can get the "Made in ..."-label if only the final assembling is done in that country. The production costs at Kamakura's are noticable lower than in Europe because at least in the past they (and a few other OEM makers) produced all the Japanese and many European and American binoculars and scopes we know under different brand names. Higher numbers of products lead to decrease of production cost for the single product. I doubt that in recent years there are any companies in Japan other than Canon, Nikon (with their more expensive series) and perhaps, to a very small margin Fuji (FMT-SX) that produce binoculars by themselves. You can get parts by the OEM-maker, ready designed binoculars adapted to your brand (favored mostly) or you can ask them to produce by your specifications. All that is only a matter of how much you would like to spend. But as always, the times they are a changin', and so the Chinese took over Kamakura's operating plan.

Steve

ceasar · Nov 17, 2012

brocknroller said:
blizdas said:

T

Ben,

Thanks for that info. Now we know at least the box is "Made in Austria".

Perhaps Austrian companies are allowed to bend the truth a bit about "country of origin" if the bins are assembled in Austria. But it's curious they wouldn't come out and say they were made in Japan, if that's the story. Japanese optics are nothing to be ashamed of, some of the best in the world, and making them in Japan probably reduces the cost compared to manufacturing them in Austria.

I think "dielectric" prism coating is what he meant, which is another upgrade. If they are improved from the older version, which was rated highly by allbinos, just below the 8x32 EL WB, and just above the Kowa 8x33 Genesis, they must be pretty good. Hope somebody does a review of the new version.

I didn't know about the hydrophobic coatings. You should add that to your ad description, good selling point.

Brock

Click to expand...

It's possible that all the improvements to the binocular did not take place in one fell swoop, so to speak. I think Allbinos reviewed a new model. Allbinos description of the colors of the Objective lens coatings is close to what I see when I examine them, and completely different from the earlier version I have which was made between 2002 and 2007.

Where I differ with allbinos is on the FOV they give them: 7.6* or 399' @ 1000yds. This jibes with what my old model has. My new model is wider than that. Not by much; but it is at least as wide as the SLC 8 x 30 and Nikon LX L 8 x 32 which are 7.8*. In any case this is a 'de minimis" issue with those differences. Eagle Optics specs say it is 435' @ 1000yds. My comparisons of it's FOV with the Nikon and the SLC show that it is clearly not that wide.

Bob

PS: There seems to have been at least 3 changes/upgrades(?) since 2002. My early version made between 2002 and 2007 has a Limited/Lifetime Warranty. The 2 Kahles Binoculars that Allbinos reviewed in 2010 and in 2011 have 25 year Warranties. My new binocular which I purchased in June 2012 has an 11 year warranty.

NDhunter · Nov 17, 2012

ceasar said:
brocknroller said:

It's possible that all the improvements to the binocular did not take place in one fell swoop, so to speak. I think Allbinos reviewed a new model. Allbinos description of the colors of the Objective lens coatings is close to what I see when I examine them, and completely different from the earlier version I have which was made between 2002 and 2007.

Where I differ with allbinos is on the FOV they give them: 7.6* or 399' @ 1000yds. This jibes with what my old model has. My new model is wider than that. Not by much; but it is at least as wide as the SLC 8 x 30 and Nikon LX L 8 x 32 which are 7.8*. In any case this is a 'de minimis" issue with those differences. Eagle Optics specs say it is 435' @ 1000yds. My comparisons of it's FOV with the Nikon and the SLC show that it is clearly not that wide.

Bob

Click to expand...

Bob:

If the newer one has di-electric prism coatings, and some coatings changes,
that should be apparent. Do these have ser. #'s?

I thought I saw a picture of these and the armor had changed, and that may
have been on the Allbinos review.

Jerry

ceasar · Nov 17, 2012

brocknroller said:
I think that Kahles bins only having "Austria" stamped on the knob rather than "Made in Japan" is somewhat deceiving. ;{

As proof, here's an ad by Texas Nautical selling a used Kahles 8x32 bin.

Note the ad heading reads: Used Kahles 8x32 Binoculars Made in Austria

and at the end of the ad, they write: These are made in Austria.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Kahles-8x32-Binoculars-Made-in-Austria-/320990783870?pt=Binocular&hash=item4abc8aa97e

If even companies that repair and sell Kahles bins don't know where they are made, how much less would consumers?

As I said earlier, I like Japanese optics, but I don't like when a salesperson or a company tries to mislead me into thinking that a product is something that it's not.

These binoculars are shown with the winged eye cups on them. They cannot be folded down to use with glasses. The binocular comes with standard eye cups on it. The winged eye cups also come with the binocular. The standard eye cups have to be peeled off the oculars to use these.

Bob

ceasar · Nov 17, 2012

NDhunter said:
ceasar said:

Bob:

If the newer one has di-electric prism coatings, and some coatings changes,
that should be apparent. Do these have ser. #'s?

I thought I saw a picture of these and the armor had changed, and that may
have been on the Allbinos review.

Jerry

Click to expand...

Yes. the SNs are on the bottom of the hinge where Swarovski also has theirs. My new one is 11183001x. If 830 means 8 x 32 then that is a low SN. My old one is 91830163x. I have been told by the Kahles Rep that it was made prior to 2007 but that was as close as they could get. The instruction manual that came with it was dated 2002.

The armor is the same on both of mine but one is gray and the other green. There are 3 colors: green, gray or camo.

The differences in the coatings on the objectives are very apparent. And the new ones are noticeably lighter in weight.

Bob

NDhunter · Nov 17, 2012

Bob:

Thanks for that, and how about the FOV, and any difference in brightness?

You seem to be the only one around here with the Kahles, so are the best
resource.

Jerry

ceasar · Nov 17, 2012

Jerry,

The new model Kahles I have is significantly brighter than the old one. It is as bright as the 8 x 30 SLC. The Nikon LX L with it's silver prisms is also pretty bright (don't know how Nikon does that with Silver coatings but they are pretty bright).

The Nikon 8 x 32 SE is the brightest of the 5 I compared.

The SE has the narrowest FOV @ 7.5* (393'). The old Kahles has 7.6* (399'). The other 3 are around 7.8*(409'). This isn't really a lot of difference but I can see it when I compare the 7.8s against the other 2 using landmarks (tall trees) that I have used for this purpose for years. For myself I don't consider these close variants significant.

Bob

Gijs van Ginkel · Nov 17, 2012

Brock,
I have investigated the Kahles 8x42 and it did perform just as good as the Kowa 8,5x44. The results were published on Peter Abrahams WEB-site in English. I did not observe the problems you mentioned as being reported by Allbinos.
Gijs

Gijs van Ginkel · Nov 17, 2012

Brock,
I have investigated the Kahles 8x42 and it did perform just as good as the Kowa 8,5x44. The results were published on Peter Abrahams WEB-site in English. I did not observe the problems you mentioned as being reported by Allbinos.
Gijs

brocknroller · Nov 18, 2012

hinnark said:
brocknroller said:

That's true not only for Austrian companies. AFAIK in the EU you can get the "Made in ..."-label if only the final assembling is done in that country. The production costs at Kamakura's are noticable lower than in Europe because at least in the past they (and a few other OEM makers) produced all the Japanese and many European and American binoculars and scopes we know under different brand names. Higher numbers of products lead to decrease of production cost for the single product. I doubt that in recent years there are any companies in Japan other than Canon, Nikon (with their more expensive series) and perhaps, to a very small margin Fuji (FMT-SX) that produce binoculars by themselves. You can get parts by the OEM-maker, ready designed binoculars adapted to your brand (favored mostly) or you can ask them to produce by your specifications. All that is only a matter of how much you would like to spend. But as always, the times they are a changin', and so the Chinese took over Kamakura's operating plan.

Steve

Click to expand...

Steve,

True, you can see many bin parts are identical or very similar, and given the common functionality of all bins, that makes sense to go with what's readily available rather than to re-invent the (focuser) wheel. Despite the lower labor costs, the prices of Japanese optics are higher now in the US because of the yen/dollar value imbalance. That must give the Japanese brand's a better profit margin, provided they are not still recouping their losses from the tsunami. Besides the EDG, I also noticed a significant price hike in the Canon IS bins. The 10x30 IS is now selling for $499 and the 12x36 IS for $829! Amazon has the 12x for $160 less, could be old stock before the price hikes.

You wrote that Chinese took over Kamakura's operating plan? What did you mean by that? Or was that a typo? Did you mean took the Chinese took over Kamakura's plant? :eek!:

brocknroller · Nov 18, 2012

Gijs van Ginkel said:
Brock,
I have investigated the Kahles 8x42 and it did perform just as good as the Kowa 8,5x44. The results were published on Peter Abrahams WEB-site in English. I did not observe the problems you mentioned as being reported by Allbinos.
Gijs

Gijs,

I heard you the first time (double post - #33, #34)

I think Arek from allbinos probably received a bad sample with the 10x42 model, because the 8x32 Kahles he reviewed didn't have those problems. He rated it highly except for CA control.

allbinos_review-Kahles_8x32.html

As to the 10x42, he didn't expect those kinds of "slip ups" from Kahles (specs of dust glued to the prisms and egg-shaped pupils). As he wrote: It’s a pity, because looking at the other test categories we find that the Kahles is a well-made product, rather difficult to fault.

ceasar · Nov 18, 2012

brocknroller said:
hinnark said:

Steve,

True, you can see many bin parts are identical or very similar, and given the common functionality of all bins, that makes sense to go with what's readily available rather than to re-invent the (focuser) wheel. Despite the lower labor costs, the prices of Japanese optics are higher now in the US because of the yen/dollar value imbalance. That must give the Japanese brand's a better profit margin, provided they are not still recouping their losses from the tsunami. Besides the EDG, I also noticed a significant price hike in the Canon IS bins. The 10x30 IS is now selling for $499 and the 12x36 IS for $829! Amazon has the 12x for $160 less, could be old stock before the price hikes.

You wrote that Chinese took over Kamakura's operating plan? What did you mean by that? Or was that a typo? Did you mean took the Chinese took over Kamakura's plant? :eek!:



Click to expand...

Maybe they did reinvent the focus wheel! It turns in the wrong direction (CC) for many people but it is the smoothest, most precise, fast focusing focus wheel I have ever used.:king: As smooth as, or maybe more so, than Nikon's LX L but slightly stiffer in use-with no backlash at all. It focuses a bit slower than the LX L-perhaps as fast as the EDG focuses.

Bob

hinnark · Nov 18, 2012

brocknroller said:
hinnark said:

You wrote that Chinese took over Kamakura's operating plan? What did you mean by that? Or was that a typo? Did you mean took the Chinese took over Kamakura's plant? :eek!:


Click to expand...

Hi Brock,

sorry for being unclear. I meant the Chinese just copied the idea of OEM producing the way Kamakuru did so successful since the last 4 decades. Kind of a "copying the copier" game, isn't it?

Steve

brocknroller · Nov 21, 2012

hinnark said:
brocknroller said:

Hi Brock,

sorry for being unclear. I meant the Chinese just copied the idea of OEM producing the way Kamakuru did so successful since the last 4 decades. Kind of a "copying the copier" game, isn't it?

Steve

Click to expand...

Thanks, that's assuring!

Here's a review of Kahles bins by another shooter. He chose the 8x32 model over the 8x32 Leicas and Zeiss FL! I bet it was because of the camo covering.

http://www.gunmart.net/accessories_review/kahles_8x32_binoculars/

Note the use of MOLCET in the photos.

ceasar · Nov 22, 2012

The pictures show the "MOLCET" (moreorlessceasarseyebrowtechnique) method of using a binocular quite clearly. It works well on the Nikon SEs to correct their penchant for "kidney beaning" in the view which some users experience.

This binocular is rather short compared to the 8 x 30SLC and Nikon 8 x 32 LX L. I suspect that the model in the picture has large hands like me. My little fingers also cover the objective cover tethers when I use the binocular.

Bob

Kahles? (1 Viewer)

Experienced observer

Well-known member

Well-known member

porromaniac

porromaniac

Well-known member

Well-known member

Experienced observer

Well-known member

Well-known member

Experienced observer

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

porromaniac

porromaniac

Well-known member

Well-known member

porromaniac

Well-known member

Similar threads

Users who are viewing this thread