Three contradictory statements in some various books and articles (1 Viewer)

I don't know if you have seen this page yet: http://sydney.edu.au/arts/research/baudin/people/expedition_members.shtml

The "René Maugé" link tells you where he was born (explaining the "de Cely" title) and mentions more information (also in French, sorry) in a 2004 issue of the Australian Journal of French Studies.

I notice that the page mentions that "nobiliary particles" (i.e. de Cely) were suppressed during the revolutionary period, which would be why you don't see them mentioned in Baudin's work.

Calalp said:

Justin,
Are you sure!? Timor in 1802. It´s a long way from offcoast Maria Island, East of Tasmania where Mr. Maugé supposedly passed away in February 1802?

I thought the Baudin Voyage left Timor in 1801?

But you ought to know, writing a PhD-thesis on the subject ...

PS. "Savu, Samau, Timor"

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You are right collected between between 21 September and 13 November 1801 (now I have access to my data).

Thanks guys!

Justin, that makes more sense! I will go for something like "… maugei was collected by René Maugé personally on Timor, in the vicinity of the town Kupang (Kota Kupang Southwest Timor), in the Autumn of 1801 … a few/some months later, he …". Is that correct, or?

"Nartreb" and Paul, Great findings those facts! Even if it sure didn´t make the case any easier.

This explains why there´s so many contradicting claims connected to the age alt. birth of René Maugé! (vers, circa or not)

He was 39 when he signed up, in 1796, for the "Trinidad" expedition (1796-1798) together with Baudin …

… and he was 42 years old when he left the port Le Havre, France (19 Oktober 1800) to participate, as zoologist on the ship Geográphe of (not when he died 1802, during) Baudin's ("own") South Sea Voyage/Expedition (1800-1804).

That´s where I think most of all those various writers have gone astray …

That would mean that René Maugé (de Cely = from Cély-en-Bière, in Seine-et-Marne, North Central France. I still don’t think it ever was a "nobiliary particle"!?) would have been born in either 1857 or 1858, doesn’t it?

And that he died (of dysentery, also picked up on Timor) onboard the Corvette/Ship Geográphe (at 11. pm = 23.00, at night) on the 20th February 1802, and was burried the next morning. Why some claim that he died on the "22nd" I do not understand …?

Anyone think otherwise?

Thanks everybody!

Ok, I think it´s about time to close this thread …

I´ll have to settle with not knowing the full story of all three …. but I can live with that:

● Slaty-breasted Tinamou Crypturellus (erythropus) boucardi SCLATER 1859/1860 (ex Sallé MS) a k a "Boucard Tinamou " or "Boucard's Tinamou"
● Boucard's Wren Campylorhynchus jocosus SCLATER 1860 a k a "Boucard’s Cactus-wren"
=Adolphe Boucard (1839–1905) = CHECK!
He was the most "important" figure, at least in my view, since he is the only one of those three commemorated in a modern "official" Swedish Bird name. The other two are "out-dated" today, by newer Swedish names, more easy to trace.
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The others I will leave as:
● Red-chested Flowerpecker Dicaeum maugei LESSON 1830 a k a "Blue cheeked Flowerpecker", "Lesser Sunda Flowerpecker" or "Timor Flowerpecker"
= René Maugé (–1802) … as earlier this thread.

● Blue-capped Kingfisher (Halcyon) Actenoides hombroni BONAPARTE 1850 a k a "Hombron's Wood-Kingfisher" or "Hombron’s Kingfisher"
... and what about Jacques Bernard Hombron? He is present in several books, articles, and (of course) all over the internet … either with the years (1798-1852) or (1800-1853) or in any thinkable combination of the same numbers!? Surely it must be possible (if you know French) to find out the truth of a Naturalist and Naval surgeon that participated in such well-documented and praised voyages as the ones of Astrolabe and Zélée, under the Command of Jules Dumont d'Urville?

But ok, the latter is of minor importance (for me, that is) and I will leave it here.

If anyone will keep on searching for those men: I wish you the best of luck!

Boucard, Maugé & Hombron … over and out!

I know you're satisified with what you know so far about René Maugé, but I was thinking, not everything is on the Internet. So I went up to my university library and had a look at the article from the Australian Journal of French Studies about the scientists of the Baudin voyage.

There was about one page discussing Maugé, but the key sentence from your point of view was this: "On a peu d'informations sur lui". (There is little information about him.)

So yeah, over and out René Maugé.

Great try, Paul!

Like you noticed, yes, I´m pleased (or at least I´m telling myself I´m content, enough) with what I´ve got ... even if I guess it could be, might be possible to go a tiny, tiny bit further.

But time is a matter, and there is soo many more eponyms and etymologies to solve.

I don´t think there are any major parts left to find, regarding the life of Mr. Maugé ... but many thanks for trying!

PS. I guess you mean: Jangoux, M. 2004. “Les zoologistes et botanistes qui accompagnèrent le capitaine Baudin aux Terres australes”. The Baudin Expedition 1800-1804, special number of the; Australian Journal of French Studies 41 (2): 55-78. Or?

Yes, that's the article I was referring to.

JustinJansen said:

Bjorn, it will be published in due course, I'm working on a PhD Thesis on the Baudin expedition (the 1800-1804 one). ....

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Type: Doctoral Thesis
Title: The ornithology of the Baudin expedition (1800-1804)
Author: Jansen, Justin J.F.J.
Date: 2018-05-22

Abstract: The expedition commanded by Nicolas Baudin to Tenerife, Mauritius, Australia, Timor and South Africa in 1800-1804 is fully researched in regard to ornithology. The expedition was government-funded and scientific equipped and had as one of the core activities collecting natural history items. Despite the lack of any diaries or lists documenting the collected birds, no less then 56 % of the 1.055 bird-specimens collected could be identified on species level. Of those which survived, 389 specimens (36,8 %) still exist in European Museums. Not only in Paris but also in 25 other museum collections worldwide as in 23 private collections specimens ended up. These 389 specimens represent the largest intact collections in time from Australia, Mauritius and Timor. For Australia and Timor only to be surpassed (nearly) three decades later. The Baudin expedition became the most successful expedition in regard to ornithology executed up to 1804. Further the research showed the importance of the 1796-98 voyage into the Caribbean, the role of donors, taxidermy in those years and the importance of notes still present in archives in Europe. With the right data now in place, many gaps in knowledge can be filled (type localities, systematics, reconstruction of long-gone landscapes, etc.).

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As of here. Accessible in parts, full text: "Under embargo until 2019-05-22"

Justin, congratulations to a Work well done! :t:

After only having had a look at "Appendix 1: Non- Passerines" I´m sure looking forward to the full Thesis. That part alone covers 251 pages (pp.236-586), fully illustrated ... wow!

I´m impressed.

Björn

Some additional info from Justin Jansen's Doctoral Thesis (2018), Appendix 3 (Bibliography of prime collectors, occasional collectors and donors of birds, pp.615-628, link in post #28), that might have some influence on (alt. contradictory claims for) a few entries in the HBW Alive Key, concerning the following eponyms:


bougainvillii / bougainvilliorum as in:
● Guanay Cormorant alt. ditto Shag (Phalacrocorax) Leucocarbo "bougainvillii" LESSON 1837 (here) as "Carbo Bougainvillii" a k a (P.) L. bougainvilliorum (Dickinson & Remsen 2013).
... the full name of the Baron/"Son" was apparently even longer (!): Hyacinthe Hypolite Yves Philippe Potentien de Bougainville (1781–1846) ... (p.618)


freycinet / freycineti as in:
● Dusky Scrubfowl Megapodius freycinet GAIMARD 1823 (here)
● the extinct Guam Flycatcher Myiagra freycineti OUSTALET 1881 (here)
● the invalid [Anas (boschas) ... ] "a. freycineti" BONAPARTE 1856 (here) , no explanation, nothing, just a List... (Richmond Card, here; "Nomen dudum!")
= the French Navy Captain Louis-Claude de Saulces de Freycinet (1779–1841) ... (p.621):

(07-08-1779, Montélimar, France; 21-03-1841, Rochefort, France) (OC), was sub-lieutenant of Le Naturaliste. He was born as the son of ...

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Also husband of the wife commemorated in Pinon's Imperial-pigeon Ducula pinon QUOY & GAIMARD 1824. Earlier dealt with in my thread Some additional etymological information – Part II (here, No. 9)


macei as in:
● Large Cuckooshrike Coracina macei LESSON 1831 (here) as "Graucalus Macei"
● Fulvous-breasted Woodpecker Dendrocopos macei VIEILLOT 1818 (here) as "Picus Macei"
● the invalid "I. [Ibis] macei" WAGLER 1827 (here) [syn. Threskiornis melanocephalus]
= the French surgeon-naturalist Jean Macé (fl. 1803): "(<1765 - > 1803) ..." ... (p. 624)

Most likely also commemorated in the following names (not listed in today's Key!):
● "Turdus macei" VIEILLOT 1818 (here)
● "Falco macei, Cuv.", ex TEMMINCK 1820 (here + Plate 8, here and Plate 223, here) a k a "Mace's Eagle" Haliaetus macei
● "Columba maceï L." ? (as of here, listed by Nieuwenhuisen & von Rosenberg, 1863), also mentioned by Büttikofer (1896), here, last page. (No such Linnaean bird name is known to me!).


maugei as in:
● Red-chested Flowerpecker Dicaeum maugei LESSON 1830 (here) as "Dicæum Maugei"
● the debated (recent split) Puerto Rican Parakeet (species alt./or subspecies) Psittacara (chloropterus) maugei SOUANCE 1856 (here) as "Psittacara Maugei"
● as well as in the invalid "Strix maugei" TEMMINCK 1821 (Unseen by me, Richmond card here) ... a synonym of Ninox boobook fusca?
● ... and in the Key's many similar names; "maugaeus / maugeanus / maugens / maugerii / maugeris / maugeus" ... (all unchecked by me)
= the French zoologist René Maugé (1757–1802), ... without the "de Cely" part ... simply born in "(1757, Cély-en Bière, France" ... and died "21-02-1802, off Maria Island, Australia)" ... (pp. 624-625).

Earlier dealt with in this thread (see Posts #1-8, 14-24) ... where we didn´t get any further than Maugé being born in either 1757 or -58. I sure wonder what made it possible to pinpoint his birth?

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Well, that's all I noted. Any other details or questions (alt. doubts?) I´m pretty sure Justin can answer himself. He´s been more than helpful earlier on!

However; enjoy!

Björn
--

Thanks Björn

Björn, thanks for the new macei taxa. I have found homes for Turdus macei and Falco macei (see Key), but not yet Columba macei.
I am still confused by the given names of the young Bougainville -- Florentine, Potentieu, Potentien, Hypolite....

You´re welcome, James!

Note (easy to miss) that the latter macei bird was written Columba maceï (with diacritic double-dots at the end) in the list by Nieuwenhuisen & von Rosenberg (1863), similar to how "Picus Maceï" a k a "Le Pic de Macé", was listed by Dr van Lidth de Jeude (in 1858), here, somewhat indicating the Pigeon/Dove was aimed the same way, named after the same Monsieur Macé. If relevant?

To my surprise (after some further Googling); apparently there was also a "Tringa Macei"!?! At least it´s listed as such, in 1835; here (on p.122). But I assume that´s only an in-between version of Wagler's "Ibis"/Threskiornis bird (simply as it´s the only one somewhat similar to a wader/shorebird). Or not?

Regarding; bougainvillii / bougainvilliorum. The true full name of Bougainville junior is unknown to me. I just happened to note what Justin claimed in his Thesis, and pointed out the differences. Junior is not "one of my guys". The only Bougainville in my MS is Bougainville Island ... (which, in its turn, was named after his father), but that's a whole different (Common name) thing.

Cheers!

Björn

James Jobling said:

Björn, thanks for the new macei taxa. I have found homes for Turdus macei and Falco macei (see Key), but not yet Columba macei.
I am still confused by the given names of the young Bougainville -- Florentine, Potentieu, Potentien, Hypolite....

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Think Potentien is the correct one, and I forgot to include the e in the name.

Columba macei and Tringa macei. If they exist at all, I think Columba macei may be a Treron; and I don't think even the older authors could have confused a dainty sandpiper Tringa with a stonking great ibis Threskiornis - or could they? The search continues.

Calalp said:

To my surprise (after some further Googling); apparently there was also a "Tringa Macei"!?! At least it´s listed as such, in 1835; here (on p.122). But I assume that´s only an in-between version of Wagler's "Ibis"/Threskiornis bird (simply as it´s the only one somewhat similar to a wader/shorebird). Or not?

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This is an index to The Animal Kingdom, Edward Griffith's English adaptation of Cuvier's Règne Animal. It says "viii, 378", which is this: https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/33170244

The name stands there in a footnote, which appears associated to the text of Tringa rufescens (= Buff-breasted Sandpiper) but that, oddly, is indeed quite clearly about ibises. It cites Wagler; the species cited are falcinellus, religiosa, macei, rubra and alba; there is no complete generic name in the footnote; only the intial 'T.' which, given the species, might quite easily stand for Tantalus, rather than for Tringa...

Good explanation Laurent. It is a long shot but Wallace described a bird "a fine and very handsome fruit-pigeon, Carpophaga concinna, which feeds upon the- nutmegs, or rather on the mace." Called Mace-eating Pigeo in a 1907 Zoologist. Now in Ducula; Elegant Imperial-Pigeon. Perhaps the source of Columba macei??
Unlikely what would be the purpose of the 'i'? Also the name would be the new latin for "mace eating"

Well done guys!

Laurent's proposed explanation of the unexpected Buff-breasted Sandpiper off-spring; "Tringa Macei", most likely intended for the Tantalus (Mycteria)/Ibis/Threskiornis bird ... make sense to me.

Regarding Mark's suggested explanation of macei, in "Columba maceï" ... wow! As in mace/nutmeg? In the sence "Columba maceiorum"... ?!? If such a construction/allusion/latinization is possible, why not?

Either way; a full view of The Zoologist : a monthly journal of natural history (with the Carpophaga concinna "Mace-eating Pigeon"), of 1907, here ... with references back to; here and here, the latter taking us here (but to p.187). If still relevant?

And; that is, of course; if that´s the Pigeon/Dove Nieuwenhuisen & von Rosenberg was thinking of in 1863. Could be. Or not.

I gladly leave them all in your more capable hands.

Cheers!

/B

I agree that "Tringa" macei = syn. Threskiornis melanocephalus (as originally listed in the Key).
The "Mace-eating Pigeon" has nothing to do with Columba macei. The former (Ducula concinna) occurs in Wallacea (the Moluccas, etc.), whereas Columba macei (if identifiable at all) occurs on Nias, off western Sumatra. According to van Marle & Voous 1988, The Birds of Sumatra, pp. 100-106, only the following pigeons have occured on that island: Treron curvirostra, T. fulvicollis, T. vernans, Ptilinopus jambu, Ducula aenea, D. bicolor, D. badia, Macropygia phasianella, Chalcophaps indica, and Caloenas nicobarica.

Quick return to Monsieur Macé (as in macei) ... and let us all forget about the "Mace-eating Pigeon" ... (even though it was a good try, Mark!)

Maybe worth considering, or not, regarding the synonym/s (?) of "Picus Macei", see here, telling us something like; "Picus Macei" VIEILLOT 1818 (OD in post #29, today's Fulvous-breasted Woodpecker Dendrocopos macei) versus "P. [Picus] Macei" listed by Wagler 1827 (here), that turned out to be today's Stripe-breasted Woodpecker Dendrocopos atratus BLYTH 1849 ... !?

To me (with meager understanding of Latin) it looks like Mr Wagler has some objections of the apparently defective description "(Descript. vitiosa.)" of Vieillot (as well on Temminck's). Which (at least to me) is quite understandable when dealing/comparing it with a different species!? Apparently (according to the former link) Hartlaub did the same mistake!

Either way; according to here; "Le naturaliste Macé" also collected a frog in Bengale (Bengal), but if we take one step back from this text, and return to the OD itself , where this frog originally was described (and depicted), as "GRENOUILLE TIGRÉE ... Rana tigerina" (here); the name of its collector was written "Massé"!?! Also written the same way on p.96 (here). Maybe that´s why Monsieur Macé is so hard to find? Or is/was the the frog collector (Mr Macé/Massé) a different guy all together?

However, ... that's it! I´m done with this guy. Tricky to search for (too many, far too many namesakes, both in the same Era, as well as earlier and later).

macei ... over and out (at least on my part)

Björn

PS. If anyone keen keep on digging: Good luck! I assume Justin, if no other, would love to know who he was. And James, of course.

Nothing news. Just what The Eponym Dictionary of Birds claims:

Puerto Rican Emerald Chlorostilbon maugaeus Audebert & Vieillot, 1801
Barred Dove Geopelia maugei Temminck, 1811
Maugé's Flowerpecker Dicaeum maugei Lesson, 1830 [Alt. Red-chested Flowerpecker, Blue-cheeked Flowerpecker]
Maugé's Conure Aratinga chloroptera maugei Souancé, 1856 EXTINCT [Alt. Hispaniolan Parakeet ssp. Syn. Psittacara chloropterus maugei]
René Maugé de Cely (d.1802) was a French zoologist who accompanied his friend Baudin (q.v.) on his great scientific voyage (1800–1803). He collected in the West Indies (1796– 1798) and the Pacific (1800–1802). He fell ill in Timor and died when the expedition arrived in Tasmania.

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