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Which flycatcher? | Hegurajima jp, may (1 Viewer)

HouseCrow

Well-known member
Hi again,
reasonable photos but no option to look at the front... few visible features on this flycatcher that doesn't look like one of the brown flycatchers (Asian Brown, Grey-streaked, Dark-sided)

NB. on Hegurajima rarities are often less rare than elsewhere in Japan (much like Scilly Islands, and Helgoland, i imagine)


What would you say it is?

hope to hear from you,

regards,
Gerben
 

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1st-winter female Blue-and-White/Zappey's Flycatcher. Females are currently considered inseparable on current knowledge, aged as 1st-w on account of retained (pale fringed) greater coverts.

Grahame
 
Thanks for the reply Grahame, the photo was taken on 21 may... I suppose that would make it either juvenile or adult...if i'm not mistaken.

I must admit I've never even heard of Zappey's. Will look into it.





regards,
Gerben
 
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Thanks for the quick clarification Grahame. I found the info on the 2 species there...
2nd cy blue&white flycatcher spec. it is. I imagine Zappey's at Hegurajima in spring would be unlikely but not at all inconceivable.

Good to know
best regards,
Gerben
 
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Thanks for the quick clarification Grahame. I found the info on the 2 species there...
2nd cy blue&white flycatcher spec. it is. I imagine Zappey's at Hegurajima in spring would be unlikely but not at all inconceivable.

Good to know
best regards,
Gerben

Yes, I should have stated Blue-and-White would be overwhelmingly the likely option since Zappey's is an accidental to Japan (?4 records, presumably all males) though it may well have been overlooked in the past and just as likely to turn up as a spring overshoot IMO.

Grahame
 
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I need to learn Japanese so that i too can find info on those numbers of zappey's... Thanks again.

will be back with less tricky stuff no doubt

regards,
Gerben
 
The paper by Leader and Carey that Grahame posted was very interesting. Like House Crow, I had not been aware of the Zappey's split, or at least not paid attention to it.

Here are a couple of comments to what has been posted after looking at this paper - NB I'm not trying to add any personal expertise, just giving my take on what others have said to calrify the issues for myself and others like me who may be interested.

This paper makes the case that there are three groups of birds to consider for Cyanoptila cyanomelana, rather than the two which have been generally recognised.

At the moment, in books that I have and that are likely to be on the shelves of others reading this thread, there is the nominate, breeding in Japan and Kuriles and maybe some coastal continental locations, and then a ssp C. c. cumatilis which breeds in continental locations to far into central China. This is the breakdown in Mark Brazil's book 'Birds of East Asia' (with the added problem that as his book doesn't cover the area, he doesn't mention central China at all).

Leader and Carey argue (and illustrate clearly in my opinion) that the central Chinese population is very different morphologially and in colour from both the Japanese island breeding population and from the continental coastal breeding population, and that the latter two are subspecies of the same species, but that the central Chinese population should be split as a separate species (which is not only morphologically distinct, but geographically disjunct).

L&C propose bringing back a former ssp title for the coastal continental birds of intermedia, and restricting cumatilis to the central Chinese population. They would then separate off cumatilis as Zappey's Flycatcher. (Of course, then the ssp name intermedia would be a bit problematic, as the birds between which this is supposed to be intermediate are no longer the same species.)

Handbook of Birds of the World has adopted this split and re-instated intermedia.

The Japanese name for cumatilis has been 'Chōsen Oruri' where Oruri is Blue-and White Flycatcher, and Chōsen means 'Korean'. Chōsen is often used in Japan to indicate a continental ssp or sp closely related to a Japanese bird. I cannot point to a source, but I strongly suspect that any Japanese records for 'Zappey's' are in fact for the intermedia, and not for the central Chinese birds at all.

I have only one Japanese book (in Japanese from 2016) which mentions Zappey's and it states that 'recently Chōsen Oruri has been renamed as Zappey's Flycatcher'; the illustration this book gives of this latter seems clearly to be of intermedia, and it states that there is one record from Kuroshima off the coast of southern Kyushu, and 'a few other records from Hegura, Tobishima and elsewhere' which are 'thought to be' this ssp. (The male of nominate and intermedia are surely very difficult to tell apart in the field on view alone, and the female impossible.)

The 2013 edition (Japanese) of Maki's generally respected Photographic Guide (Japan's Wild Birds 650) doesn't mention any ssp at all (i.e. no cumatilis, let alone intermedia), even though B&W Flycatcher is the main bird on the front cover of the book, but the distribution map also doesn't indicate any presence in central China.

The bird in Brazil's Birds of East Asia illustrated and described as cumatilis is clearly L&C's intermedia. As noted L&C's cumatilis would fall outside the range of Brazil's book.)

In short, I think that the likelihood of Zappey's in Japan, in the restricted sense of L&C and of HBW is very low even in Hegurajima; indeed it's probably never been seen. But I can't point to any source to confirm this, so I might be wrong.

After writing the above, I remembered a post on Neil Davidson's Japanese birding blog about a possible intermedia on Hegurajima in 2014. If I'd remembered it earlier, perhaps I would have just given the link, without writing my post, but having gone to the trouble, I'll leave my stuff up, as I think it's correct anyway.
 
There are a few mentions of cumatilis in Japan. I found not much more than this (https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jyio1952/34/2/34_2_309/_article) but it should be enough to confirm the idea that it's not 100% safe to say that my bird is not female cumatilis...especially in spring on Hegurajima.
If there's an autumn record of a juvenile male, a spring record of a 2nd cy cumatilis (on its way back to the breeding ground) should be possible too.

Of course: chances are small...


cheers
Gerben
 
There are a few mentions of cumatilis in Japan. I found not much more than this (https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jyio1952/34/2/34_2_309/_article) but it should be enough to confirm the idea that it's not 100% safe to say that my bird is not female cumatilis...especially in spring on Hegurajima.
If there's an autumn record of a juvenile male, a spring record of a 2nd cy cumatilis (on its way back to the breeding ground) should be possible too.

Of course: chances are small...cheers

Gerben

Hi Gerben. I think you missed the point of my post.

The paper you cite is from 2003, before L&C proposed the three-way split in 2013. This 2003 paper describes the bird mentioned, as I said, in one Japanese book I have from 2016 from the island of Kuroshima.

At that time, cumatilis referred to all continental birds which vary a little from those breeding in Japan, as well as the central Chinese birds which look quite a lot different from both the Japanese and the coastal continental birds.

But if you accept L&C's proposed three-way split, then cumatilis now refers only to these birds from central China which seem to look a lot different from both the birds that breed in Japan and the more coastal continental birds. Not only that, but Cyanoptila cumatilis is now a species and not a subspecies of Cyanoptila cyanomelana. It is this new species which is called (by those who accept the split) Zappey's Flycatcher.

And the Japanese breeding birds are Cyanoptila cyanomelana cyanomelana, while the continental breeding birds would be Cyanoptila cyanomelana intermedia. (Some Cyanoptila cyanomelana cyanomelana also breed near the continental coast, it seems, but not vice versa.)

The 2003 paper (download the pdf and look at the photos) clearly shows intermedia (not Zappey's). Indeed the photos of continental birds this paper uses for comparison to clinch the ID are from Liaoning, which is coastal China near Korea.The 2016 book I referred to suggests that this is the only absolutely definite record of intermedia in Japan, with a few others claimed (but not necessarily certain) from some other offshore islands, including Hegurajima.

My point was that your bird was extraordinarily unlikely to be cumatilis in the new sense (i.e. Zappey's). And also that it was very unlikely (but not impossible) to be intermedia (part of cumatilis in the old sense), since even this ssp has only been claimed a handful of times. It could be, but unless you or someone else can point to some conclusive features which show this, then the assumption is that it is the local nominate form.

As I said in the earlier post, part of my aim was to clarify things for myself because I didn't understand Grahame's original reply about Blue-and-White/Zappey's. He later says, "Zappey's is an accidental to Japan (?4 records, presumably all males)" but I think he is wrong here, and that there have been only this number of records of intermedia claimed, and no Zappey's at all.

But I am completely open to correction by someone more knowledgeable about this recent split and its occurence.
 
Ok I didn't realise the article predates the Zappey's-article...sorry about that.
I should have written 'cumatilis' as i meant to refer to the type (not species or subspecies).

I understand what you are saying. Occurrence of C.c. intermediate is possible not likely,
whereas a Japanese record of C. cumatilis would be very much unlikely. The occasional record of extreme rarities in unlikely places does not warrant an ID of my bird as Cyanoptila spec.

There appears to be little knowledge of C.cumatilis vagrancy pattern. The IBC-birdlisting-website holds one record of a singing male in far-eastern Russia (Josep del Hoyo | 2009june05, 25km south of Ussuriysk Nature Reserve, Primorsky Krai, Russia)

HBW alive also states there's a Japan record (no further info given)

I dare not comment on these records.

I guess I'll have to change it back to species level : ), thanks for your comments...and if you can find more information ..please do share.

regards,
Gerben
 
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I agree with MacNara that any claims of cumatilis from before the 2013 should be treated as unconfirmed. We know that there has been historical confusion about the ID of cumatilis and intermedia, so older records cannot be reliably confirmed as one or the other (unless photos or description have been reassessed). It is feasible that cumatilis could occur in Japan, but given the currently known status it seems rather unlikely.

I suspect, though, that intermedia could be slightly more regular in Japan than current records suggest, involving birds overshooting from breeding grounds in Korea. It is probably still quite a rarity though, and I don't see any real reason to suppose that your bird would not be the more common, breeding cyanomelana.

BTW, the singing male that Gerben links to on the IBC website is also more likely to be an intermedia. It is in range for that taxon (and well outside the range of cumatilis) and the song seems a better fit to the description of cyanomelana/intermedia in the 2013 paper. Note that the recording predates the 2013 paper, from a time when the true ID of cumatilis was still misunderstood.
 
You are probably right, i will see if i dare make a post about that to HBW/IBC. They do mention the 2013 paper and treat the species as Blue & White Flycatcher (2 subs) and Shappey's Flycatcher (monotypic).

thanks for the extra info

cheers
Gerben
 
I agree with MacNara that any claims of cumatilis from before the 2013 should be treated as unconfirmed. We know that there has been historical confusion about the ID of cumatilis and intermedia, so older records cannot be reliably confirmed as one or the other (unless photos or description have been reassessed). It is feasible that cumatilis could occur in Japan, but given the currently known status it seems rather unlikely.

I suspect, though, that intermedia could be slightly more regular in Japan than current records suggest, involving birds overshooting from breeding grounds in Korea. It is probably still quite a rarity though, and I don't see any real reason to suppose that your bird would not be the more common, breeding cyanomelana.

BTW, the singing male that Gerben links to on the IBC website is also more likely to be an intermedia. It is in range for that taxon (and well outside the range of cumatilis) and the song seems a better fit to the description of cyanomelana/intermedia in the 2013 paper. Note that the recording predates the 2013 paper, from a time when the true ID of cumatilis was still misunderstood.

Agreed.

In answer to McNara's query I was merely stating females were inseparable on current knowledge which I later qualified in relation to the OP as being 'overwhelmingly likely' a Blue-and White.

Regarding status, in the absence of any official list, I used this https://kantorilode.weebly.com/annotated-checklist-of-the-birds-of-japan.html but with hindsight I should have been more cautious.

Zappey's Flycatcher has been recorded in Korea as a vagrant (<10 records)-this bird on Jeju in Apr 2010 looks the part, though I don't know whether or not is officially accepted http://snowyowllost.blogspot.com/2013/04/zappeys-flycatcher-cyanoptila-cumatilis.html

Apologies for the misleading information.

Grahame
 
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Zappey's Flycatcher has been recorded in Korea as a vagrant (<10 records)-this bird on Jeju in Apr 2010 looks the part, though I don't know whether or not is officially accepted http://snowyowllost.blogspot.com/2013/04/zappeys-flycatcher-cyanoptila-cumatilis.html

I've never seen Zappey's myself, but the bird linked to looks absolutely spot on for the central Chinese birds that L&C describe.

I also agree with John that it is rather surprising that intermedia has apparently been so rare in Japan. You'd expect a few at least to be blown across each year. But it is very close in looks to the nominate and it must be almost impossible to be certain about an intermedia ID just on view, given that on that plumage changing light will give changing colouration, and especially in the forested locations it likes. In the summer, in Japan, a bird in the forest can look almost black all over, and then the wind blows a branch and sunlight hits the bird and it's like a bright blue bulb has been switched on.

See Neil Davidson's blogpost I linked to earlier for ID difficulties.
 
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