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The not German Germain in German's Swiftlet … in French (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Björn Bergenholtz
- Start date
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Fine, I read it as 10th month and therefore October.
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Also note the other documents, in Leonore (Archives Nationales), following the same link (in Post #20):
In No. 1, 7, 11, 12,13,14-15, 16, 18-19/19 he's: Louis Rodolphe Germain,
but in No. 2, 3-4, 5, 6, 8, 17/19 he's: Louis Adolphe Germain ... !?!
In some of those documents both versions have been altered/corrected into the other!
I don't know what to believe. Mix-up, same or different guy/s, a name-change ... or what?
Noteworthy is No. 9/19 where Monsieur Germain himself seems to have signed the Receipt (Récépisse ...) with "R. Germain" (even if he did it with a non-typical R, though compare with where he signed it; in Rennes (Brittany/Bretagne).
This far I´ll go for; Louis Rodolphe Germain. Born 13 April 1827 ... dead ... ?
Björn
--
In No. 1, 7, 11, 12,13,14-15, 16, 18-19/19 he's: Louis Rodolphe Germain,
but in No. 2, 3-4, 5, 6, 8, 17/19 he's: Louis Adolphe Germain ... !?!
In some of those documents both versions have been altered/corrected into the other!
I don't know what to believe. Mix-up, same or different guy/s, a name-change ... or what?
Noteworthy is No. 9/19 where Monsieur Germain himself seems to have signed the Receipt (Récépisse ...) with "R. Germain" (even if he did it with a non-typical R, though compare with where he signed it; in Rennes (Brittany/Bretagne).
This far I´ll go for; Louis Rodolphe Germain. Born 13 April 1827 ... dead ... ?
Björn
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l_raty
laurent raty
Apparently, he was first incorrectly registered as "Louis Adolphe", then had to ask for a correction, and to produce a birth certificate to prove his names were Louis Rodolphe. See images 14-15, which show a letter from the Minister of War to the Grand Chancellor of the Legion of Honour -
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Louis Rodolphe Germain (1827–1912)
And, all in all; wow! That´s what I would call a surprising development ... ?!?
If 'Xbre' is to be read as Decembre [as in X (decem/10) + -bre], how would they (or that single clerk) have written October ... as VIIIbre? As in VIII (octo/8) + -bre, ending up in/to be read as: Octobre/October? Would that mean that any possible 'IXbre' is equal of November (IX/novem/9) and that September (in this somewhat Cryptic system) would have been written VIIbre (VII/septem/7)? How (on Earth) would they have written (the/our eighth Month) August?
Either way, it sure got me fooled. In my mind, 'Xbre' is not the most obvious way to write Decembre (nor Octobre, for that matter).
Though; to me it does look like Laurent is fully correct (as usual), sorry Martin, as we (in the Leonore database) also find a guy by the name "Stephane Marie Alphonse Germain de Saligny" [not to be involved in any bird name etymology, in this context only mentioned as an example]; born "1846/12/05" (here), in the original document (the first one, out of 21), written (né le) "5 X bre 1846". In that case 'X bre' is/was clearly equal of December.
As if this wasn't/isn't convincing enough; if one compare Rodolphe Germain's document No. 1 with No.14 [in the same Leonore, Summary of his Cote (Case/file) LH/1123/75 (here)], we find that he was elevated from Chevalier to Officier (de la Légion d'honneur) in/on "28 Décembre 1883" resp. "du 28 Xbre 1883". Same event, same date, same year, written in two different ways, for the same thing (if I understood it correct, not knowing French).
Thereby, as of now (contrary to my old post #1, from back in 2014), I´d go for: Rodolphe Germain, whose full name was Louis Rodolphe Germain, born 13 April 1827, in Givet (Ardennes), ... veterinary surgeon, in the French colonial Army, ... and onwards ... until he died, 26 December 1912, in Brantôme (Dordogne), France – at the age of 85.
Though, as usual, don't hesitate to prove me (us) wrong!
Anyone who have found his death mentioned/written elsewhere (in an all unambiguous way)?
This far I haven't seen any other text/document (other than the ones pointed at in this thread) that reported of his Death. Any additional verification, confirmation (of 1912) would be warmly welcomed, simply to be on the safe (very safe) side.
Björn
PS. I assume the claim of him having died in 1917 origins from, Bulletin du Muséum national d'histoire naturelle, 1950, (here), which gave his years as: "(1827-? 1917)". Why Beolens et al decided to disregard of that question mark, in their Eponym dictionaries... (of Mammals/Birds), is all unknown to me [since then, unfortunately this/their claim have been quoted and requoted in various texts, articles, scientific papers, and all over the "net". As of now we suddenly know it's clearly false – thanks to Martin, we´ve got the proper date and year (and thanks to Laurent, also the proper Month).
Thanks guys! Well done! :t:
--
Thanks Laurent! Now it makes sence.
And, all in all; wow! That´s what I would call a surprising development ... ?!?
If 'Xbre' is to be read as Decembre [as in X (decem/10) + -bre], how would they (or that single clerk) have written October ... as VIIIbre? As in VIII (octo/8) + -bre, ending up in/to be read as: Octobre/October? Would that mean that any possible 'IXbre' is equal of November (IX/novem/9) and that September (in this somewhat Cryptic system) would have been written VIIbre (VII/septem/7)? How (on Earth) would they have written (the/our eighth Month) August?
Either way, it sure got me fooled. In my mind, 'Xbre' is not the most obvious way to write Decembre (nor Octobre, for that matter).
Though; to me it does look like Laurent is fully correct (as usual), sorry Martin, as we (in the Leonore database) also find a guy by the name "Stephane Marie Alphonse Germain de Saligny" [not to be involved in any bird name etymology, in this context only mentioned as an example]; born "1846/12/05" (here), in the original document (the first one, out of 21), written (né le) "5 X bre 1846". In that case 'X bre' is/was clearly equal of December.
As if this wasn't/isn't convincing enough; if one compare Rodolphe Germain's document No. 1 with No.14 [in the same Leonore, Summary of his Cote (Case/file) LH/1123/75 (here)], we find that he was elevated from Chevalier to Officier (de la Légion d'honneur) in/on "28 Décembre 1883" resp. "du 28 Xbre 1883". Same event, same date, same year, written in two different ways, for the same thing (if I understood it correct, not knowing French).
Thereby, as of now (contrary to my old post #1, from back in 2014), I´d go for: Rodolphe Germain, whose full name was Louis Rodolphe Germain, born 13 April 1827, in Givet (Ardennes), ... veterinary surgeon, in the French colonial Army, ... and onwards ... until he died, 26 December 1912, in Brantôme (Dordogne), France – at the age of 85.
Though, as usual, don't hesitate to prove me (us) wrong!
Anyone who have found his death mentioned/written elsewhere (in an all unambiguous way)?
This far I haven't seen any other text/document (other than the ones pointed at in this thread) that reported of his Death. Any additional verification, confirmation (of 1912) would be warmly welcomed, simply to be on the safe (very safe) side.
Björn
PS. I assume the claim of him having died in 1917 origins from, Bulletin du Muséum national d'histoire naturelle, 1950, (here), which gave his years as: "(1827-? 1917)". Why Beolens et al decided to disregard of that question mark, in their Eponym dictionaries... (of Mammals/Birds), is all unknown to me [since then, unfortunately this/their claim have been quoted and requoted in various texts, articles, scientific papers, and all over the "net". As of now we suddenly know it's clearly false – thanks to Martin, we´ve got the proper date and year (and thanks to Laurent, also the proper Month).
Thanks guys! Well done! :t:
--
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Hi Björn, I tried to contact Archive en ligne. They replied that records are only availble online until 1902 (which did not surprise me as that was my first try) and that they are not assisting people in private research. If you want to know it for sure you have to go to their reading room.
Anyway I am happy that Laurent corrected me and it is confirmed by the archive that Xre is december. As usual I can always learn something new from Laurent. A big thank you.
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Small information more in The Eponym Dictionary of Birds and of course two additional errots
As shown death 1912 is correct. Interesting is that he was in New Caledonia from 1975 till 1878. So as well for him are:
Take it for what's worth.
As shown death 1912 is correct. Interesting is that he was in New Caledonia from 1975 till 1878. So as well for him are:
Take it for what's worth.
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Birth record Visionneuse - Archives departementales des Ardennes p. 321 of 378
Death record Registres paroissiaux et d'état civil p. 12 of 14 in 26. Dec. 1912 in Brantôme
Death record Registres paroissiaux et d'état civil p. 12 of 14 in 26. Dec. 1912 in Brantôme
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