AOU-NACC Proposals 2020 (2 Viewers)

l_raty · Nov 25, 2019

Kirk Roth said:
The Collinson data is mtDNA too, however, and it has elegans and eurygnathus all mixed in their node - that's what I can't resolve. If Elegant and Cabot's are so distinct from one another, how did Collinson come up with that tree? I get it that the bootstrap values are very very low, but they felt at least good enough to publish it.

If you mean their Fig. 4 (the one where the two species are indeed mixed), this was nuclear, not mtDNA. And, indeed, the relationships within the acuflavidus/elegans clade are not well resolved at all with these data. (Albeit Cabot's is still clearly closer to Elegant than to Sandwich, hence the tree does conflict with traditional species limits.)
They published this tree mainly because it gives good support to a node uniting albididorsalis to bengalensis to the exclusion of maximus. I.e, it supports the non-monophyly of the traditional Royal Tern -- which is what this paper was about.

Kirk Roth · Nov 27, 2019

l_raty said:
If you mean their Fig. 4 (the one where the two species are indeed mixed), this was nuclear, not mtDNA. And, indeed, the relationships within the acuflavidus/elegans clade are not well resolved at all with these data. (Albeit Cabot's is still clearly closer to Elegant than to Sandwich, hence the tree does conflict with traditional species limits.)
They published this tree mainly because it gives good support to a node uniting albididorsalis to bengalensis to the exclusion of maximus. I.e, it supports the non-monophyly of the traditional Royal Tern -- which is what this paper was about.

Thank you - I did not realize that was a nuclear tree.

I knew that its inclusion was to support their conclusions about Royal Tern, I was just surprised that the weird branch was barely mentioned in the paper. Hopefully they can publish something interesting on the Cabot's/Elegant clade as well sometime soon.

ajknue · Mar 18, 2020

I didn't see this here yet, but proposals 2020-B and 2020-C have posted:

https://americanornithology.org/nacc/current-prior-proposals/2020-proposals/

Nutcracker · Mar 18, 2020

ajknue said:
2020-B

Of Sarkidiornis, why not follow IOC and use Comb Duck (the New World species) and Knob-billed Duck (Old World)? Or is following IOC too strong a political anathema to NACC?

Nutcracker · Mar 18, 2020

ajknue said:
2020-C

Common Kingfisher: fascinating record! Hope its identity gets verified satisfactorily. While dealing with it, perhaps the NACC could settle the correct scientific name for the species under ICZN rules? See posts 73, 75-6, 78-79 in this thread.

Mysticete · Mar 18, 2020

Not sure I like dropping the "Scrub-" portion from Scrub-Jay

Nice to see the White-eye split and Northwestern Crow lump, and I am surprised there is a proposal for Saw-whet Owl split. As far as Pacific Northwest splits, I would have guessed the Spruce or Ruffed Grouse before this.

Nutcracker · Mar 18, 2020

Mysticete said:
... a proposal for Saw-whet Owl split. ...

Though they missed a trick on the English name . . . since Haida Gwaii is rainforest, they should've just called it 'Saw Wet Owl' 8-P

Jeff Hopkins · Mar 18, 2020

Nutcracker said:
Though they missed a trick on the English name . . . since Haida Gwaii is rainforest, they should've just called it 'Saw Wet Owl' 8-P

Don't you mean 'Isaw Awet Owl" ?

mb1848 · Mar 18, 2020

Nutcracker wrote

Common Kingfisher: fascinating record! Hope its identity gets verified satisfactorily.

. I thought I saw a Common Kingfisher ssp bengalensis from a migrant trap coastal central Californis on September 2, 2011. I described it as light red and grey bumble bee pattern on the belly, Bright blue wings and back. Don Roberson lists this as a possible vagrant from Eurasia. App. B of Rare Birds of West Coast (1980)
I failed to bring my sling shot and did not get a picture. No one believed it and eventually neither did I becuase I could not see this small bird flying across the Pacific Ocean.

Nutcracker · Mar 18, 2020

mb1848 said:
Nutcracker wrote . I thought I saw a Common Kingfisher ssp bengalensis from a migrant trap coastal central Californis on September 2, 2011. I described it as light red and grey bumble bee pattern on the belly, Bright blue wings and back. Don Roberson lists this as a possible vagrant from Eurasia. App. B of Rare Birds of West Coast (1980)
I failed to bring my sling shot and did not get a picture. No one believed it and eventually neither did I becuase I could not see this small bird flying across the Pacific Ocean.

Wow! I don't think it could cross the Pacific on its own, but I suspect that one could easily be carried across by a ship, fishing from the side of the ship and carried east without its realising. It need not be fed or handled by people on board, just catching natural food while using the ship for resting and sleeping. What's the AOC position on ship-assisted birds?

GMK · Mar 18, 2020

Nutcracker said:
Common Kingfisher: fascinating record! Hope its identity gets verified satisfactorily. While dealing with it, perhaps the NACC could settle the correct scientific name for the species under ICZN rules? See posts 73, 75-6, 78-79 in this thread.

That will not happen. As I informed Andy Kratter, the author of the relevant proposal, by e-mail (16 Dec 2018), the claimed specimen of Alcedo atthis in Cuba was reportedly destroyed by rats. The fact that the specimen no longer existed was also clearly signalled in our field guide to the West Indies published last year (p. 375). The person who is said to have collected the specimen lived in Europe for some time.

Mysticete · Mar 18, 2020

Technically the ABA has no prohibitions about adding ship-assisted birds, but they generally will only review birds that pass state/provincial checklist committees first. Most of which seemingly do not accept such birds.

So ship-assisted birds often end up in a weird limbo of not technically uncountable, but never added.

Paul Clapham · Mar 19, 2020

Nutcracker said:
Though they missed a trick on the English name . . . since Haida Gwaii is rainforest, they should've just called it 'Saw Wet Owl' 8-P

Or they could have used the Haida name for the bird -- that would put the owl among the pigeons again.

johnallcock · Mar 19, 2020

Nutcracker said:
Common Kingfisher: fascinating record! Hope its identity gets verified satisfactorily. While dealing with it, perhaps the NACC could settle the correct scientific name for the species under ICZN rules? See posts 73, 75-6, 78-79 in this thread.

Unfortunately the only ID information provided for this record are the biometrics, and these don't fit the published biometrics of Common Kingfisher eg tarsus too long, tail too short.

Jeff Hopkins · Mar 19, 2020

Mysticete said:
Technically the ABA has no prohibitions about adding ship-assisted birds, but they generally will only review birds that pass state/provincial checklist committees first. Most of which seemingly do not accept such birds.

So ship-assisted birds often end up in a weird limbo of not technically uncountable, but never added.

Like the Hooded Crow in Staten Island.

Nightjar61 · Mar 26, 2020

“2020-C-7: Adopt West African Crested Tern as the English name for Thalasseus albidorsalis”

Looks like they accepted the split of Royal Tern as proposed in 2020-A-9.

Dave

Kirk Roth · Mar 26, 2020

Jeff hopkins said:
Like the Hooded Crow in Staten Island.

And the House Crows which have bred in Florida!

Kratter · Mar 26, 2020

Kirk Roth said:
And the House Crows which have bred in Florida!

The FOSRC is on the third round of voting for the submission to add the House Crow to the State List. Votes of 7/7 or 6/7 pass, 0/7 or 1/7 to not be accepted. Otherwise back on the docket it goes.
Andy

Kirk Roth · Mar 26, 2020

Kratter said:
The FOSRC is on the third round of voting for the submission to add the House Crow to the State List. Votes of 7/7 or 6/7 pass, 0/7 or 1/7 to not be accepted. Otherwise back on the docket it goes.
Andy

Thank you, Andy. Just curious -is there a limit to the number of "rounds" and do you happen to have an idea when this case might be decided/announced?

pbjosh · Mar 27, 2020

Finally back to a computer and caught up on sleep from some covid19 related travel adventures.

I should hope that the Paltry/Mistletoe Tyrannulet split goes through. The birds are 100% diagnosable, physically distinct and easy to ID in the field, differ in voice, and differ in habitat. I feel the burden of proof should be in showing them to be conspecific if that is one's viewpoint.

It seems the balance now points at Mexican Duck increasingly needing to be split in order to justify other splits in this group but I won't be surprised by a no vote.

On the Unicolored Jay proposal, it seems that it could have / should have been written to offer the options of 2/3/4/5 way splits - I could see a 3 way split (concolor / oax+gue / S of Isthmus) or a 5 way split (as proposed + splitting Nic/Hon birds from Chiapas/GT birds) being argued just as well as the 4 way split, and I could see a 3 way split being more easily digested. Curious to see how it shakes out but I think at least a 3 way split looks pretty hard to argue against. As well, still disappointed that the CA/Woodhouse's proposal didn't treat Sumichrast's Jay.

I will just give up on NACC if the the Antthrush split fails.

AOU-NACC Proposals 2020 (2 Viewers)

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