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When a new Leica binocular? (1 Viewer)

Kammerdiner:
For someone who claims not to care, you certainly seem to CARE! A LOT!


The topic was/is what is the next step for Leica, you know, to keep up with the Jones'. I would hope they would avoid producing a Leicavision version just for the sake of it.

As for Renze's take on it, now that's something I don't really care about. If you don't like the SV view don't use it. But why go on and on about it?

That's going on and on? I thought he made his point well and I enjoyed the read. Watch out Brock, he's coming your way.


To say it's not practical for birding is utterly absurd. John Vanderpoel has been on the road all year doing a big year (734 at last count) and he's using them. Poor guy, how does he manage?

I never said they weren't practical for birding. Don't be utterly absurd ;) Of course, they are. SV is just unnecessary, for birding. I am amused at your citing what John Vanderpoel is using as some kind of accreditation. Do you think Mr. Vanderpoel would have missed a single bird had he been using, say, an SLC? Do you also buy cars and clothes and such based on celebrity endorsements?

Kevin,

I was referring to Renze who did indeed suggest that the SV wasn't "practical for birding," an absurd statement. Perhaps I should have quoted him separately but I responded to both. Sorry for any confusion.

And of course Vanderpoel wouldn't miss stuff with a different bin. I never suggested he would. I mention him only because he seems to find the SV perfectly "practical," and so do I. On top of that, he's probably done more birding in one year than you or I will do in a lifetime. He should know.

I choose nothing based on "celebrity endorsement" and had the SV about seven months before I had ever heard of Vanderpoel. His main competitor is using an SLC HD. I make nothing of their choices. To each his own.

As for the on and on part, that's just a general note referring to the perennial griping here on BF, some of which gets pretty repetitive. I'll say it again: if you don't like the SV view don't use it. But don't pretend that's anything more than a personal preference.

Vanderpoel now has 737. The record is 745. He actually has a chance.

Mark
 
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What I'd like to see is for Leica to do away with this smaller / lighter / more compact trend and go for a 8x36 model with a 150m FOV, 16mm ER, Zeiss levels of CA and weighing 650g which for me is the perfect weight.
 
I suppose that anyone who can take a year out of his life attempting to set a "birding" record can use any binocular it pleases him to use. It's not as rigorous as competing in the most triathlons or bungee jumping from the most bridges over 100 feet high on the North American Continent in one year but it is certainly a more congenial and relaxing competition.

Bob
 
I checked out Vanderpoels blog, and it is very interesting, flying here and there to pick
up a few rare ones as the end of December nears.
It very much reminds me of the recent birding movie "The Big Year". It was discussed here and was entertaining.

Jerry
 
Ok, here we go, on to the future: what would we like to see in the next binoculars from Leica (or Zeiss, Nikon or any manufacturer imaginable).
....
Renze

Your observations are very much in line with my view of the situation: There is clearly a quality/price/tire/purpose/branding confusion with the SLC HD and EL SV. I remember we discussed this almost a year back as well. The same situation is true with Nikon Premier and Nikon EDG series in my opinion. If one is a replacement for the other, then why don't they drop the old line? If they are different product tires, whay are they almost exactly the same in performance?

The same situation applies to rifle scopes: Schmidt and Bender has created a new line called Zenith but still makes the previous line which is now called "classic". I and many others still prefer the old model for the very simply reason that the new range offers nothing more.

Another example is the German rifle maker Blaser. They recently brought a new model line called R8 to replace the successfull previous line which was called R93. The key "improvement" in the new rifle is that R8 has detachable magazine. But many people (myself included) simply don't want it and think the old R93 model was better. Shortly after its introduction, Blaser started offering an "option" with R8 so that customers can get it with fixed magazine!!!!!!!

http://www.blaser-usa.com/r8/


Welcome to the era of great product improvements...
 
Omid,
I don't think that the new Nikon EDG line was intended to replace the HG L line. The EDG is a completely new binocular. It looks nothing like the HGL/Premier line did. It has different prism coatings, ED glass, a new diopter mechanism, longer eye relief, wider oculars, improved eye cups and unique winged eye cups that are both substantial and easy on, easy off. And it has better edges, at least to my eyes. I have both the 10 x 32 EDG and 10 x 32 LX L and have compared them both numerous times.

The 8 x 42 and 10 x 42 EDG versions have wider FOV's than the Premiers and there is a brand new 7 x 42 EDG in the line up. Nikon never had a 7 x 42 Roof Prism before and this one was designed to compete with Leica and Zeiss. Swarovski has dropped theirs.

The old HGL/Premier fills a niche between the EDG and the Monarch X in quality and price. The old 10 x 32 HG L is discontinued but the popular 8 x 32 remains as a Premier with all it's previous excellence but (based on recent sales) at a price well under $1000.00.

Bob
 
Omid,
I don't think that the new Nikon EDG line was intended to replace the HG L line. The EDG is a completely new binocular. It looks nothing like the HGL/Premier line did. It has different prism coatings, ED glass, a new diopter mechanism, longer eye relief, wider oculars, improved eye cups and unique winged eye cups that are both substantial and easy on, easy off. And it has better edges, at least to my eyes. I have both the 10 x 32 EDG and 10 x 32 LX L and have compared them both numerous times.

The 8 x 42 and 10 x 42 EDG versions have wider FOV's than the Premiers and there is a brand new 7 x 42 EDG in the line up. Nikon never had a 7 x 42 Roof Prism before and this one was designed to compete with Leica and Zeiss. Swarovski has dropped theirs.

The old HGL/Premier fills a niche between the EDG and the Monarch X in quality and price. The old 10 x 32 HG L is discontinued but the popular 8 x 32 remains as a Premier with all it's previous excellence but (based on recent sales) at a price well under $1000.00.

Bob

Agreed, the HGL and EDG are different breeds, however, the EL and SLC-HD are close to the same price point and same quality standard. Not alpha and beta like the EDG and HGL.

Swaro used to be a two-tier company, ELs on the top shelf and SLCs on the second shelf.

It makes me wonder if the CL series will be expanded in the future to include full sized "Lite" models. If not, where will the 7x42 SLC and 10x42 SLC owners go if they can't afford or don't want to spend WHY2K? on SLC-HDs or ELs?

Swaro's "lateral move" probably has an even greater impact on hunters, but I guess Swaro figures, as the rep stated, hunters will migrate to the heavier, larger aperture 8x and 10x56 SLCs, which Swaro apparently intends to keep making.

However, Swaro SLC birders will either have to move up a shelf to the $2Kers or move down in aperture to the midsized 8x30 or 10x30 CL.

At the next bird count, I'll ask the bird club member who owns an SLC what she plans to do.

Brock
 
I checked out Vanderpoels blog, and it is very interesting, flying here and there to pick
up a few rare ones as the end of December nears.
It very much reminds me of the recent birding movie "The Big Year". It was discussed here and was entertaining.

Jerry

Jerry,

Yeah, when the movie came out I started following his blog. I hope he breaks the record but geez that will be tough with just over three weeks to go.

Brock,

My guess is that SLC owner, when asked what she plans to do, will say: "Nothing." Most birders I know just aren't equipment hounds like us geeks. Instead they find something they like and stick with it. Very sensible when you think about it.

Mark
 
Omid,
I don't think that the new Nikon EDG line was intended to replace the HG L line. The EDG is a completely new binocular. It looks nothing like the HGL/Premier line did. It has different prism coatings, ED glass, a new diopter mechanism, longer eye relief, wider oculars, improved eye cups and unique winged eye cups that are both substantial and easy on, easy off. And it has better edges, at least to my eyes. I have both the 10 x 32 EDG and 10 x 32 LX L and have compared them both numerous times.

Thanks for your explanation. OK, I take my statement on Nikon EDG and HG models back. But the issue with Swarovski EL SV and SLC HD models still holds.
 
As some posters mentioned earlier, I'd much rather see Leica compete with Swarovski on warranty and customer service.
 
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........Once a certain level of optics is attained, handling, ergonomics, ease of view, quick focus, and je ne sais quoi mean far more that that last .2% of whatever view you'd want to argue about.

Again, wondering how others bird, these instruments are held in our hands! I for one do not have tripod stability and that infinitesimal "improvement" in the view through your $2.4K glasses doesn't account for much in real world conditions over, say, a lowly pair of Trinovids... most of the time anyway.

Even before reaching the .2% level, it may not make sense any more. As we get older, we can first try to compensate for our diminishing vision with better optics, like selecting brighter models. But there comes a point where our eyes deteriorate to a point that does no longer allow us to make full use of the optical performance of an alpha model. But then, many people buy stuff that does not make sense. And they often are the ones with the most money to spend. So manufacturers particularly cater to that clienele by issuing "more advanced" products.
 
Some great points here. I confess to having had "issues" finding contentment with Binoculars. Kevin's comment is spot on for me...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...and a voice of reason. Your thoughts greatly mirror my own about this crush towards flat field optics, for BIRDING. Who cares? I don't. You've found something in the SLC that's more important. I've found things in other bins that, to me, are more important.

I've often wondered to myself What kind of birding are these people doing? to place such import on the things they're talking about. To paraphrase something I once wrote on these pages somewhere: Once a certain level of optics is attained, handling, ergonomics, ease of view, quick focus, and je ne sais quoi mean far more that that last .2% of whatever view you'd want to argue about."

The key for me is obtaining a natural instantly satisfying view of a bird in all situations.

I confess to trading in my 8x32 Trinovids due to a chance peep through a pair of 7x42 Ultravid HD's. The latter are indeed VERY fine bins but after a while I found the focus "bite" hard to find? I managed to find a pair of "Trinnies" on eBay and I am content once again. The natural view...
 
Even before reaching the .2% level, it may not make sense any more. As we get older, we can first try to compensate for our diminishing vision with better optics, like selecting brighter models. But there comes a point where our eyes deteriorate to a point that does no longer allow us to make full use of the optical performance of an alpha model. But then, many people buy stuff that does not make sense. And they often are the ones with the most money to spend. So manufacturers particularly cater to that clienele by issuing "more advanced" products.

Oh, boy, you're on the Alpha Defense League's black list now. :) Well said!

As long as that clientele keeps digging deeper, the incremental change$ will keep rolling out. However, as the Optics Consumer Index Poll thread seems to indicate, at some price point there will be enough middle class dropouts that alpha makers will be forced to change their business model by either becoming a specialty product company for professionals and the upper crust or by offering an new line of optics at a lower price point.

Zeiss and Swaro have opted for a two-tier business model. It remains to be seen if Leica will adopt the money-is-no-object approach it did to its camera division or follow suit with a CL/Conquest class of instruments.

Brock
 
Oh, boy, you're on the Alpha Defense League's black list now. :) Well said!

As long as that clientele keeps digging deeper, the incremental change$ will keep rolling out. However, as the Optics Consumer Index Poll thread seems to indicate, at some price point there will be enough middle class dropouts that alpha makers will be forced to change their business model by either becoming a specialty product company for professionals and the upper crust or by offering an new line of optics at a lower price point.

Zeiss and Swaro have opted for a two-tier business model. It remains to be seen if Leica will adopt the money-is-no-object approach it did to its camera division or follow suit with a CL/Conquest class of instruments.

Brock

Brock:

I want to offer another opinion that seems to agree with yours.
Leica should also think about offering another price-point just as Swaro.
and Zeiss do.
I like choices, and many here, have optics of all kinds from top to
mid and lower levels.
How about a nice econo. Trinovid BL, with slim body, and with great
optics. It would be a big seller, offered in 2 sizes, 8x32, and 8x42.
And another thought is the 7x35, as many here do mention as a great all around.
This would be a temptation for many, if priced right. ;)

I am not a big Leica fan, but they do need to hear from those who would buy one.


Jerry
 
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I will argue for significant upgrades. I can’t wait for significant improvement!

There is no shortage of customers at all levels. The global market is enormous and growing. There is a market for binoculars are all levels. According to a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service study, birdwatchers contributed with 36 billion USD to the US economy 2006, and one fifth (20%) of all Americans are identified as birdwatchers! Guided bird tours have become a major business with at least 127 companies offering tours worldwide. An average trip to a less-developed country costs $4000 per person. A Consumer who wastes thousands a year on TV subscriptions and $5 coffee should not be underestimated.

The big three binos come out on top of the vast majority of credible reviews and comparisons over and over. Despite some postings to the contrary – they are better. There is no shortage of those who willing to pay for the best based on my current birding activities.

I completely dismiss the geeky notion that a meaningful or measurable number of buyers of the trendy open bridge fad, red spots, and blue squares are “binocular fashionistas”. These are birders calling out the correct bird IDs. Speculation the binocular manufacturers are depending on socially insecure and weak minded buyers to throw the current model in the garbage and run out and purchase the latest and greatest sounds like an idea fueled by antidepressant overuse or a bad case of “you spot it, you got it”. Aspirational marketing and life style pitches are more the stuff of TV ads for autos. You dont go to Hawk Mtn or Cape May to impress the babes with your bins.

For the serious bino junkie. Leica, Swarovski, Nikon and Zeiss are a bargain if purchased first. The serious user will end up at this level anyway because they are the best. Add up your total spend on optics and let me know if it is close to or exceeds $2200! If it does and you still don’t own the best… you may want to jump off baby step merry-go-round.

Other than that we agree!
 
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tvc15-
I will argue for significant upgrades. I can’t wait for significant improvement!

I suppose this is a judgement call, but I think you'll be waiting a very long time for a "significant" improvement. The current top tier bins are pretty damn good and, uh, not everyone considers a very flat field an improvement in a birding bin.

There is no shortage of customers at all levels. The global market is enormous and growing. There is a market for binoculars are all levels.

No shit? Who or what are you responding to? Fishing for Herring, of the red variety?

The big three binos come out on top of the vast majority of credible reviews and comparisons over and over. Despite some postings to the contrary – they are better.
Uh uh, go on...

I think you missed the part about flat fields and the question of their utility in a birding binocular.


I completely dismiss the geeky notion that a meaningful or measurable number of buyers of the trendy open bridge fad, red spots, and blue squares are “binocular fashionistas”. These are birders calling out the correct bird IDs. Speculation the binocular manufacturers are depending on socially insecure and weak minded buyers to throw the current model in the garbage and run out and purchase the latest and greatest sounds like an idea fueled by antidepressant overuse or a bad case of “you spot it, you got it”. Aspirational marketing and life style pitches are more the stuff of TV ads for autos. You dont go to Hawk Mtn or Cape May to impress the babes with your bins.

You are on a tear, aren't you? I think the gentleman doth protest too much!

For the serious bino junkie. Leica, Swarovski, Nikon and Zeiss are a bargain if purchased first. The serious user will end up at this level anyway because they are the best. Add up your total spend on optics and let me know if it is close to or exceeds $2200! If it does and you still don’t own the best… you may want to jump off baby step merry-go-round.

Again, you seem to be having your own conversation.

Other than the above, I agree with you ;)
 
tvc15-
I will argue for significant upgrades. I can’t wait for significant improvement!

I suppose this is a judgement call, but I think you'll be waiting a very long time for a "significant" improvement. The current top tier bins are pretty damn good and, uh, not everyone considers a very flat field an improvement in a birding bin.

There is no shortage of customers at all levels. The global market is enormous and growing. There is a market for binoculars are all levels.

No shit? Who or what are you responding to? Fishing for Herring, of the red variety?

The big three binos come out on top of the vast majority of credible reviews and comparisons over and over. Despite some postings to the contrary – they are better.
Uh uh, go on...

I think you missed the part about flat fields and the question of their utility in a birding binocular.


I completely dismiss the geeky notion that a meaningful or measurable number of buyers of the trendy open bridge fad, red spots, and blue squares are “binocular fashionistas”. These are birders calling out the correct bird IDs. Speculation the binocular manufacturers are depending on socially insecure and weak minded buyers to throw the current model in the garbage and run out and purchase the latest and greatest sounds like an idea fueled by antidepressant overuse or a bad case of “you spot it, you got it”. Aspirational marketing and life style pitches are more the stuff of TV ads for autos. You dont go to Hawk Mtn or Cape May to impress the babes with your bins.

You are on a tear, aren't you? I think the gentleman doth protest too much!

For the serious bino junkie. Leica, Swarovski, Nikon and Zeiss are a bargain if purchased first. The serious user will end up at this level anyway because they are the best. Add up your total spend on optics and let me know if it is close to or exceeds $2200! If it does and you still don’t own the best… you may want to jump off baby step merry-go-round.

Again, you seem to be having your own conversation.

Other than the above, I agree with you ;)

tvc15,

Save your breath...er, your keystrokes. The opposition, for whatever obscure reasons, has far more invested in this debate than you do.

Talk about protesting too much. Geez. I honestly don't know why some folks are so obsessed with cost and "incremental improvements." The cost of an SV wouldn't get you a ten-year-old clunker Buick.

M
 
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Add up your total spend on optics and let me know if it is close to or exceeds $2200! If it does and you still don’t own the best… you may want to jump off baby step merry-go-round.

Guilty as charged....

...getting off the baby-step merry-go-round.....

:-C
 
The number of people who are serious birders is grossly overestimated in all of these surveys.

Look at the ABA, membership has been declining for years and the organization was near the brink just last year!

Local naturalist clubs are also a dying breed, with membership aging and no new members. I live in a county of about 80,000 people.......there are 5 serious birders in the whole county.
 
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