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Renaming all North American Birds (2 Viewers)

andyadcock said:
But then, as per previous arguments, it would cease to be an 'English' language list? By this argument, all European, Boreal species should be known by their Viking names.
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The, for want of a better word, local names would be used as a starting point, not necessarily directly. They could be used for instance in translation or by adopting an English name that refers to a characteristic recognised in the local name. Also, Bonxie and Tystie could be considered as Viking names that are widely used.


Mysticete said:
The problematic part here is that, especially if you are dealing with a widely distributed species, which Native American word are you going to use? People seem to forget that Native Americans are actually made of numerous diverse cultures with different languages. And it assumes that there was a distinct name for each bird we recognize as a species today, and that the name wasn't shared with a completely different species by a completely different tribe or cultural group.
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I didn't say it was going to be easy! That is partly why you'd need wide consultation and research to compile a full list of names and their translations/interpretations. Although there might be a range of different names for a given species there may well be some common ground e.g. in names based around e.g. the colour, size or habitat of the species. which could be carried forward into the English name. The point about distinct names for birds we recognise as species is a fair one, but if there are distinct names for given species within specific cultures or areas then that's all the more reason for reflecting those in the English name. Of course there are likely to be many species which don't have clearly identifiable names in any Native American language, but it would be good to know that before selecting a name.
 
opisska said:
That's a cursed species, it's name in Czech is just a gibberish word (probably some old long disused word, but doesn't even sound like anything). Let's call it "unnameable harrier" and it's solved!
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Unmentionable Harrier, because all records need to be suppressed to prevent persecution ;)

(There are certain sites where the locals might apply the same adjective to many other species ;))
 
Dave Ball said:
Oh, certainly, Wren on its own is only appropriate in Europe.

However, when Trump causes the final collapse of the USA and you have to rejoin the Empire, one of the first measures we will enforce (after driving on the left), is the re-naming of all American sparrows to buntings ;)
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Yeah, just make sure there aren't two strikes. (Don't even try to figure that one out; Americans understand.)
 
Dave Ball said:
Yes, not all the “new” names were bad, and Rosy Starling is excellent, concise and descriptive. I’ve also always rather liked Hedge Accentor, even though it generally hasn’t replaced Dunnock, which is at least briefer, though Accentor sounds more exotic.
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Dunnock is far, far better! A very traditional old English name that actually means something ('little brown bird': 'dun' = brown, 'ock', a small bird; so it is the original LBJ). Accentor is just a meaningless contrivance, 'that which accents things' (like a conductor conducts things). Have you ever seen a Hedge Accentor accenting a hedge, and what did the hedge look like after it had been accented? WTF does it mean??

Harrison (1982, Atlas of the Birds of the Western Palaearctic) very sensibly used 'dunnock' for all of the Prunella species; European Dunnock, Alpine Dunnock, Siberian Dunnock, Radde's Dunnock, etc. I reckon we should all follow suit :t:
 
opisska said:
There is plenty birds with generic adjective names, but the worst I met was Pale Crag Martin - it's 3 words, so you automatically don't click it as all being a part of the name - the first time I thought someone is trying to convince me it's a Crag Martin, but a pale one, which was clearly absurd.
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No worse than Great Crested Grebe, Great Spotted Woodpecker, etc.! Just a bit less familiar . . . :t:
 
andyadcock said:
But then, as per previous arguments, it would cease to be an 'English' language list? By this argument, all European, Boreal species should be known by their Viking names.
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Like Tystie for Black Guillemot . . . excellent idea o:D

Or Sule for Gannet (as in Sule Skerry and Sula Sgeir)

(Tejste, and Sule, respectively in Danish :t:)
 
Mysticete said:
There have been a few suggested names over the years I have been fine with...someone over in the taxonomy forum suggested renaming all the new world vultures to condor, so you would have Turkey Condor, Black Condor, King Condor, etc besides the current California and Andean. I rather like that.
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That was me o:) I've added the suggestion to their list now and they seem to like it :t:
 
Nutcracker said:
Dunnock is far, far better! A very traditional old English name that actually means something ('little brown bird': 'dun' = brown, 'ock', a small bird; so it is the original LBJ). Accentor is just a meaningless contrivance, 'that which accents things' (like a conductor conducts things). Have you ever seen a Hedge Accentor accenting a hedge, and what did the hedge look like after it had been accented? WTF does it mean??

Harrison (1982, Atlas of the Birds of the Western Palaearctic) very sensibly used 'dunnock' for all of the Prunella species; European Dunnock, Alpine Dunnock, Siberian Dunnock, Radde's Dunnock, etc. I reckon we should all follow suit :t:
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Right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accentor

Accordingly, Accentor is 'a singer' (from late Latin) and its usage in vernacular names comes directly from adopting the genus name given to the Alpine Accentor before the species was transferred to genus Prunella: it was Accentor collaris.
 
Nutcracker said:
That was me o:) I've added the suggestion to their list now and they seem to like it :t:
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Using 'Condor' for the small Cathartidae seems a very bad idea, imo o:)
The name Condor is specifically associated with a very unique properties, such as maximum size, 'ruler of other birds', mystical/religious heritage, etc. It would be a bit like using Raven to name all other corvids.
An actually good solution (imo...) would be to use the Tupi (or Tupi-Guarani) generic name for all South American vultures (except for Condors), which is 'urubu': this means simply 'big black bird': 'uru': big bird, 'bu': black. Urubu is the common generic name for those species used in Brazil (all 3 Catharthes, Coragyps atratus and Sarcorhamphus papa) and is indeed part of the Portuguese lexicon. A Condor is called a Condor in Brazil, if you're wondering (but it's only a vagrant there).
This would come perfectly in line with other names with Tupi-Guarani origin already being used extensively, such as Tanager (from Tangará), Jacana (Jaçanã) and others.
 
RafaelMatias said:
An actually good solution (imo...) would be to use the Tupi (or Tupi-Guarani) generic name for all South American vultures (except for Condors), which is 'urubu': this means simply 'big black bird': 'uru': big bird, 'bu': black. Urubu is the common generic name for those species used in Brazil (all 3 Catharthes, Coragyps atratus and Sarcorhamphus papa) and is indeed part of the Portuguese lexicon..
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And urubu used to be the Polish common name for small American vultures too, which I really liked - unfortunately, now it's been changed to "sępnik", which could be translated as a "vulture-like-something", urubu was much better I would say...
 
I am certainly for keeping bird names named after European explorers and naturalists. When you read biography of somebody like Robert Swinhoe or Alfred Russel Wallace they were true heroes. In many cases their quest for science cost them their lives. It takes a cheek of somebody sitting in front of the computer to critic them.

Of Czech bird names, everybodys favorite is Ferruginous Duck that is Polak maly. Literally 'a Polish boy', like in well known Polish children rhyme: Who are you? A Polish boy.
 
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jurek said:
I am certainly for keeping bird names named after European explorers and naturalists. When you read biography of somebody like Robert Swinhoe or Alfred Russel Wallace they were true heroes. In many cases their quest for science cost them their lives. It takes a cheek of somebody sitting in front of the computer to critic them!
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Now if they want to extend outreach to the Great American Public in general, a noble intent, then all the new names will require the word 'bird' added....:eek!::eek!::eek!:
MJB
 
jurek said:
I am certainly for keeping bird names named after European explorers and naturalists. When you read biography of somebody like Robert Swinhoe or Alfred Russel Wallace they were true heroes. In many cases their quest for science cost them their lives. It takes a cheek of somebody sitting in front of the computer to critic them.

Of Czech bird names, everybodys favorite is Ferruginous Duck that is Polak maly. Literally 'a Polish boy', like in well known Polish children rhyme: Who are you? A Polish boy.
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From Polish names, we recently run into Zaganiac maly, (Booted Warbler), which is just incredibly funny - but I feel like it has to be funny even in Polish, no? In Czech I read it as "a small person whos job is to drive others away".

I think the feeling is best to shared using expressive theater.

https://youtu.be/cN2bb-8qHNk
 
Should all Americans named John Smith change their surnames into John Itmanager or whatever?

And if it does not matter, why nobody is named John Mammothhunter?
 
Mysticete said:
Another attempt to do the same thing from the Hawaii birdwatching group on facebook

Sigh...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...RdZKUnTHzLSEJUIrOmqaovek_96FOw6WCzcN-TqsF6tjs
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I'm guessing this is at least partly tongue-in-cheek, as they propose changing Black-headed Gull to Laughing Gull (it would match the Latin name, at least), Iceland Gull to Glaucous Gull (the original Glaucous Gull would become White Gull), and Harris's Sparrow to Black-faced Bunting (no word on what the original Black-faced Bunting would become). Also, all Juncos become Snowbuntings, while the Snow Bunting becomes a Snowspur. And just what would the plural of 155 and 156 on the list be?

Jokes aside, it's actually the *good* names on this list that underscore what a pointless excercise this is from a practical standpoint. Sure, Mountain Plovers are closely related to dotterels, and Shortgrass Dotterel is an excellent, accurate, and descriptive name, but what good does it do to change it? And of course Oystercatchers don't really catch oysters, they crack them, but do we really want to call them Oystercrackers? And Alaskan Stint is much more accurate and informative than Western Sandpiper, and so on...Changing these names might make them more accurate, but it would hinder and not help communication.

I enjoyed going through this list, it's a fun intellectual excercise, and have to admit I found some of the new names to be really cool (Cascadian Swift, and my favorite of all, King Chekua for Pomarine Jaeger/Skua), but as something to be taken seriously, that's another matter...

And just to show how open-ended this constant 'improving' of names can be, doesn't their suggestion of Black-and-blue Warbler for Black-throated Blue advocate violence? 3:)
 
Mysticete said:
Another attempt to do the same thing from the Hawaii birdwatching group on facebook

Sigh...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...RdZKUnTHzLSEJUIrOmqaovek_96FOw6WCzcN-TqsF6tjs
Click to expand...
Some interesting ideas: I like the Nahuatl name Solin for the New World 'Quail' :t:

Interesting to see it lumps the Bean Geese as one species, which is likely correct genetically. But also only lumps White-winged, Common and Black Scoters into one species of Scoter?

Others very odd though - why the choice of the Haida name for Harlequin Duck, but the Icelandic name for Barrow's Goldeneye? The two species interestingly have almost identical ranges (both in Iceland, both in Haida Gwaii).

And 'Crested-Tern' is just plain ugly; hyphen totally unnecessary.
 
I see this expanding, suggestion of the adoption of 'local' names, as liberalist tokenism, this is the'English' language list.

I know there are the occasional exceptions but they are being used as an excuse for the whosesale massacre of the list, this is getting totally out of hand. If all these changes are enacted, it will no longer be an English language list.

Are the same pressures being applied to the Dutch, German, Swedish lists?
 
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