Susan Manchester
Well-known member
Here I am again, trying to find out the first name of the French feather dealer named Mantou. I hope everyone is doing well.
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Craspedophora mantoui (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Susan Manchester
- Start date
mb1848
Well-known member
...the first name of the French feather dealer named Mantou.
In 1859 a Mr. M. Mantou ran a business in Paris that made de coiffes de casquettes et chapeaux souples en tous genres piquées et gaufrées. As part of this business they imported and sold feathers or plumes . The old ornithologists would go over and look at the feathers to see if there were any novel ones.
In the days
when the plume trade was flourish-
ing, tens of thousands of bird of
paradise skins went every year
through the hands of the great plume
dealers in the Indies, Paris, Amster-
dam, and London. These dealers,
among whom the Dutchman Duiven-
bode and the French dealer Mantou
were best known, discovered each
year in their shipments from New
Guinea a few skins that did not seem
to belong to any known species. Lord
Rothschild and other collectors were
willing to pay fabulous prices for
these specimens.
http://books.google.com/books?id=VtJBAAAAcAAJ&dq="Mantou"+chapeau&source=gbs_navlinks_s .
In 1859 a Mr. M. Mantou ran a business in Paris that made de coiffes de casquettes et chapeaux souples en tous genres piquées et gaufrées. As part of this business they imported and sold feathers or plumes . The old ornithologists would go over and look at the feathers to see if there were any novel ones.
In the days
when the plume trade was flourish-
ing, tens of thousands of bird of
paradise skins went every year
through the hands of the great plume
dealers in the Indies, Paris, Amster-
dam, and London. These dealers,
among whom the Dutchman Duiven-
bode and the French dealer Mantou
were best known, discovered each
year in their shipments from New
Guinea a few skins that did not seem
to belong to any known species. Lord
Rothschild and other collectors were
willing to pay fabulous prices for
these specimens.
http://books.google.com/books?id=VtJBAAAAcAAJ&dq="Mantou"+chapeau&source=gbs_navlinks_s .
Paul Clapham
Well-known member
For what it's worth, here's a link to a document which mentions a "Mme E. Wogue-Mantou" as a feather-dealer in Paris: http://www.fold3.com/document/35693682/. This appears to be from the 1930's, so perhaps a descendant of M?
And here's another document: http://brittlebooks.library.illinois.edu/Scripts/Run%20Script/DispatchBrittleBooks/hach0001parhacv01914i00003/hach0001parhacv01914i00003_ocr.txt which also puts "Mantou" at 8 rue Violet as a bulk feather dealer, but again with no given name.
And here's another document: http://brittlebooks.library.illinois.edu/Scripts/Run%20Script/DispatchBrittleBooks/hach0001parhacv01914i00003/hach0001parhacv01914i00003_ocr.txt which also puts "Mantou" at 8 rue Violet as a bulk feather dealer, but again with no given name.
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Craspedophora mantoui Oustalet, 1891 OD here
In OD he is declared as négociant à Paris. Another of this dealers we know nearly nothing.
The Eponym Dictionary of Birds claims:
The old key:
From here I would say
Maybe someone find his life dates.
Found as well and must be somewhere in Recueil de la Gazette des tribunaux: journal de jurisprudence et des débats judiciaires
He might be still alive in 1926 or even in 1933 here . He might have married Mutes Wogue.
In OD he is declared as négociant à Paris. Another of this dealers we know nearly nothing.
The Eponym Dictionary of Birds claims:
The old key:
From here I would say
Maybe someone find his life dates.
Found as well and must be somewhere in Recueil de la Gazette des tribunaux: journal de jurisprudence et des débats judiciaires
He might be still alive in 1926 or even in 1933 here . He might have married Mutes Wogue.
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A tricky one for "regular" genealogy as this family is Jewish.
The Honouree is either:
Heymann MANTOU (23 June 1820 in Maizières-lès-Vic, Lorraine - 1887 in Paris)
or his son Georges
Heymann married on 15 November 1849 in Paris to
Adélaïde LEVY 1825-1876
They ran the plumassier business until their son & daughters (and son-in-laws) took over.
They had 3 children:
Georges Isaïe MANTOU Born: 10 May 1859 Paris, France.
Alice Gabrielle MANTOU Born 10 May 1859 (twin) who married Théodore Julien WEILL (1857-) on 30 Octobre 1888 and became Mme Weill-Mantou (and one of her sons became a famous Tuberculosis doctor)
Eugènie Henriette MANTOU Born 9 April 1858 who married Emile WOGUE (1854-1915) on 24 Novembre 1887 and became Mme Wogue-Mantou.
In 1930 the company became Wogue-Mantou and was run by the descendants of Mme Wogue-Mantou and family.
Now as to a date for Georges death? There is indeed a listing for Georges Mantou as an "Honorary Vice-president" of the Plume Sellers association throughout most of the 1930s (see post #4 last line) but I wonder if you have to be alive for your name to be listed?? If you do need to be alive then I can say that he ceased being listed in October 1937 (= possible date of death)
The honoree depends on whom and crucially when the museum got the specimen(s). As the holotypes accession number is C.G.1891-932 (N.C. 22 A) we can assume it was received in 1891 and thus can only have been donated/sold by Georges AND his sisters husbands (co-owners of the business).
I conclude The Honouree is Georges Isaïe MANTOU Born: 10 May 1859 Paris; Died 1937 Paris.
Paul
PS Shockingly this was Haymann's 2nd cousin (and Georges 3rd).
T
The Honouree is either:
Heymann MANTOU (23 June 1820 in Maizières-lès-Vic, Lorraine - 1887 in Paris)
or his son Georges
Heymann married on 15 November 1849 in Paris to
Adélaïde LEVY 1825-1876
They ran the plumassier business until their son & daughters (and son-in-laws) took over.
They had 3 children:
Georges Isaïe MANTOU Born: 10 May 1859 Paris, France.
Alice Gabrielle MANTOU Born 10 May 1859 (twin) who married Théodore Julien WEILL (1857-) on 30 Octobre 1888 and became Mme Weill-Mantou (and one of her sons became a famous Tuberculosis doctor)
Eugènie Henriette MANTOU Born 9 April 1858 who married Emile WOGUE (1854-1915) on 24 Novembre 1887 and became Mme Wogue-Mantou.
In 1930 the company became Wogue-Mantou and was run by the descendants of Mme Wogue-Mantou and family.
Now as to a date for Georges death? There is indeed a listing for Georges Mantou as an "Honorary Vice-president" of the Plume Sellers association throughout most of the 1930s (see post #4 last line) but I wonder if you have to be alive for your name to be listed?? If you do need to be alive then I can say that he ceased being listed in October 1937 (= possible date of death)
The honoree depends on whom and crucially when the museum got the specimen(s). As the holotypes accession number is C.G.1891-932 (N.C. 22 A) we can assume it was received in 1891 and thus can only have been donated/sold by Georges AND his sisters husbands (co-owners of the business).
I conclude The Honouree is Georges Isaïe MANTOU Born: 10 May 1859 Paris; Died 1937 Paris.
Paul
PS Shockingly this was Haymann's 2nd cousin (and Georges 3rd).
| NAME: | Georges Mantou |
|---|---|
| BIRTH YEAR: | 1883 |
| BURIAL YEAR: | 1943 |
| BURIAL PLACE: | Lorraine, France, Nancy |
| DEATH AGE: | 60 |
| CEMETERY: | Preville |
| NOTES: | Deported and died in Auschwitz |
T
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Just to make sure, simply some backing-up (nothing contradictory), mostly for completeness sake ... regarding both the mantoui taxon;
First the bird we've already been dealing with:
• the invalid (hybrid*) "Craspedophora Mantoui" OUSTALET 1891 (OD, first link in post #4):
This "Craspedophora Mantoui (Oust .)" was again described by the same Émile Oustalet, the year after (in 1892), in Nouvelles archives du Muséum d'Histoire Naturelle (here, which also included a very nice Plate of the bird itself, here).
If this text adds anything about Monsieur Mantou himself (or differ in any major way) is beyond me (it's all in French), but I don't think so ...?
[far later, in 1911, also noted (in English) as "Mantou's Bird of Paradise, Heteroptilorhis mantoui" (here)]
• the equally invalid** Monal/Pheasant "Lophophorus impeyanus var. Mantoui" OUSTALET 1893 (OD here, in text, the article starts here):
No given names of the dedicatee, not even a, or any, Initial/s, on neither one.
Though, following what Paul presented yesterday in post #5, and from the little I understand of those French texts (helped only by Google Translate), it seems like the latter bird (the Monal/Pheasant specimen) was picked up in London, by Monsieur Mantou, in October 1891, which certainly would exclude Monsieur Mantou (Sr.), who, at that point, had been dead since 1887.
Thus, I'd say, mantoui can't be, or couldn't have been, aimed at the older "Heymann Mantou". Which I assume would go for both one of those birds. Both ought to have been "Georges Mantou's ... "
For what it's worth.
Björn
PS. As Martin posted his #6 while I was writing, typing away on this one, regarding the years of dear Georges Mantou; I have no idea, not the faintest, nor any opinion. I've only checked the birds in question (as shown above, I haven't looked at any, neither one, of those French persons involved, or/and suggested, I haven't even tried).
*A cross between a female Magnificent Riflebird Ptiloris magnificus X male Twelve-wired Bird of Paradise Selucidis melanoleuca (according to the Handbook of Avian Hybrids of the World, by Eugene M. McCarthy, 2006, here).
**a junior synonym of today's Himalayan/Impeyan Monal/Pheasant Lophophorus impejanus (Latham, 1790), according to Jobling's Key, above.
First the bird we've already been dealing with:
• the invalid (hybrid*) "Craspedophora Mantoui" OUSTALET 1891 (OD, first link in post #4):
This "Craspedophora Mantoui (Oust .)" was again described by the same Émile Oustalet, the year after (in 1892), in Nouvelles archives du Muséum d'Histoire Naturelle (here, which also included a very nice Plate of the bird itself, here).
If this text adds anything about Monsieur Mantou himself (or differ in any major way) is beyond me (it's all in French), but I don't think so ...?
[far later, in 1911, also noted (in English) as "Mantou's Bird of Paradise, Heteroptilorhis mantoui" (here)]
_____________
And the other taxon [seemingly commemorating the same person (i.e. same scientific name, same Author/Auctor), close in time]:
• the equally invalid** Monal/Pheasant "Lophophorus impeyanus var. Mantoui" OUSTALET 1893 (OD here, in text, the article starts here):
No given names of the dedicatee, not even a, or any, Initial/s, on neither one.
Though, following what Paul presented yesterday in post #5, and from the little I understand of those French texts (helped only by Google Translate), it seems like the latter bird (the Monal/Pheasant specimen) was picked up in London, by Monsieur Mantou, in October 1891, which certainly would exclude Monsieur Mantou (Sr.), who, at that point, had been dead since 1887.
Thus, I'd say, mantoui can't be, or couldn't have been, aimed at the older "Heymann Mantou". Which I assume would go for both one of those birds. Both ought to have been "Georges Mantou's ... "
For what it's worth.
Björn
PS. As Martin posted his #6 while I was writing, typing away on this one, regarding the years of dear Georges Mantou; I have no idea, not the faintest, nor any opinion. I've only checked the birds in question (as shown above, I haven't looked at any, neither one, of those French persons involved, or/and suggested, I haven't even tried).
*A cross between a female Magnificent Riflebird Ptiloris magnificus X male Twelve-wired Bird of Paradise Selucidis melanoleuca (according to the Handbook of Avian Hybrids of the World, by Eugene M. McCarthy, 2006, here).
**a junior synonym of today's Himalayan/Impeyan Monal/Pheasant Lophophorus impejanus (Latham, 1790), according to Jobling's Key, above.
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
In Bulletin Mensuel ... (No.459), from "Septembre-Octobre 1937" we find Monsieur Georges Mantou, ... and Madame Wogue-Mantou, listed as "Négociants en plumes brutes" (here).
And in the fairly recent book Des savants pour protéger la nature (2019), in Chapitre VIII. Échecs et réussites de la protection de la nature au tournant des siècles, pp.235–263, we also find an anonymous Mantou mentioned (here), together with another well-known name (earlier dealt with): "Lefevre et Mantou, tous plumassiers" ...
If either one of those texts truly concern "our guy" I cannot tell. It could. Or not. But I would think so ...
For whatever it's worth.
/B
And in the fairly recent book Des savants pour protéger la nature (2019), in Chapitre VIII. Échecs et réussites de la protection de la nature au tournant des siècles, pp.235–263, we also find an anonymous Mantou mentioned (here), together with another well-known name (earlier dealt with): "Lefevre et Mantou, tous plumassiers" ...
If either one of those texts truly concern "our guy" I cannot tell. It could. Or not. But I would think so ...
For whatever it's worth.
/B
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Only same as Paul wrote here .
Another relative was Paul Isaïe Mantou p. 8 of 31 died 5 September 1924 (Mort pour la France). But as well a cousin I assume. And here p. 26 of 31 a daughter of him Louise Suzanne Mantou died 16 Januaray 1932.
Another relative was Paul Isaïe Mantou p. 8 of 31 died 5 September 1924 (Mort pour la France). But as well a cousin I assume. And here p. 26 of 31 a daughter of him Louise Suzanne Mantou died 16 Januaray 1932.
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Couldn't it be simply because they closed their business? Or has this Georges Mantou any connection?
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