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HBWAlive Key; mission accomplished or mission impossible? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter James Jobling
- Start date
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Thank's Paul for your clarification.
P.S. At least I wasn't in panic mode. :eek!: I just was curious why he wasn't mentioned. But now clearly shown evidence by you.
P.S. At least I wasn't in panic mode. :eek!: I just was curious why he wasn't mentioned. But now clearly shown evidence by you.
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Great job, Paul! :t:
Onwards, can we (please) keep this thread on its track, and focus on its original intent, to find and solve, the names listed by James (the 'Mission' itself). For anyone (like myself) who is trying to keep track of the various developments in this (to say the least) looooooong thread it's tricky, close to impossible, to keep track of it all, if, and when, we're lead astray, on various sidetracks, over and over again. It isn't too complicated to start a new thread, on any other new topic, is it?
Either way, I'm not (truly) complaining, I'm glad we're all into it, that anyone and everyone still keeps digging into all of these, and those, various obscure names, with such enthusiasm, and I sure wouldn't want it in any other way, such activities are nothing but desired. Keep it up!
Thereby, let's return to the unsolved "T. [Trochilus] Georginæ" BOURCIER 1847, alt. "T. [Trochilus] Mariæ" BOURCIER & MULSANT 1846, a k a Le C. [Colibrie] de Marie (in French], as in Mark's #522, or even the generic name Bathilda REICHENBACH 1862 (as dealt with in #499, 508-509) ... or any other of the many, many remaing ones, from James's first List/s (see post #461, and subsequent posts, of course).
Any progress?
Björn
PS. Also keep track of the frequent updates in thread BOW Key.
Onwards, can we (please) keep this thread on its track, and focus on its original intent, to find and solve, the names listed by James (the 'Mission' itself). For anyone (like myself) who is trying to keep track of the various developments in this (to say the least) looooooong thread it's tricky, close to impossible, to keep track of it all, if, and when, we're lead astray, on various sidetracks, over and over again. It isn't too complicated to start a new thread, on any other new topic, is it?
Either way, I'm not (truly) complaining
, I'm glad we're all into it, that anyone and everyone still keeps digging into all of these, and those, various obscure names, with such enthusiasm, and I sure wouldn't want it in any other way, such activities are nothing but desired. Keep it up!Thereby, let's return to the unsolved "T. [Trochilus] Georginæ" BOURCIER 1847, alt. "T. [Trochilus] Mariæ" BOURCIER & MULSANT 1846, a k a Le C. [Colibrie] de Marie (in French], as in Mark's #522, or even the generic name Bathilda REICHENBACH 1862 (as dealt with in #499, 508-509) ... or any other of the many, many remaing ones, from James's first List/s (see post #461, and subsequent posts, of course).
Any progress?
Björn
PS. Also keep track of the frequent updates in thread BOW Key.
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
I agree it is hard to follow. But somehow an issue of the initial design of this thread. If you have that many open questions in one thread this will of course lead to the fact that side tracks will open as the focus is not just on one topic. In case of Wilsons as they are mentioned in OD of caroli. Therefore I think....
... is a very valid point as in the collection of Edward Wilson.
Bourcier named many Wilson family members. Why not Charles Wilson?
In case of georginae I am not 100 % sure who the T.B. is.
I don't think Thomas Belleby as I miss the W. But might be a typo in PZL as it is J.B. (Jules Bourcier) in Revue zoologique.
... is a very valid point as in the collection of Edward Wilson.
Bourcier named many Wilson family members. Why not Charles Wilson?
In case of georginae I am not 100 % sure who the T.B. is.
I don't think Thomas Belleby as I miss the W. But might be a typo in PZL as it is J.B. (Jules Bourcier) in Revue zoologique.
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mb1848
Well-known member
HORSFIELD,
• urica as in "Merops Urica" 1822
Reichenbach says the javanese name for this bird is Pirik.
https://www.google.com/books/editio...n+Merops++"urica"&pg=PA64&printsec=frontcover . Page 64.
Possible Horsfield heard Uric for Pirik?
Zoonomen says Merops is male?
• urica as in "Merops Urica" 1822
Reichenbach says the javanese name for this bird is Pirik.
https://www.google.com/books/editio...n+Merops++"urica"&pg=PA64&printsec=frontcover . Page 64.
Possible Horsfield heard Uric for Pirik?
Zoonomen says Merops is male?
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Mark, I don't follow ...
The dear old Key (of 9th of May) told us just about the same:
The dear old Key (of 9th of May) told us just about the same:
What's the new view-point ... ?
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Mark, who does?
And even if so, even if we had access, it wouldn't help, or change much, as the dear old (HBW Alive) Key hasn't moved in with Cornell's Birds of the World yet, right now there is no BoW Key (at least not dealing with Etymology), the Key itself is in transit, in limbo ... and, as I understand it, so it will be (probably) for months and months. We will simply have to wait. Like the say; patience is a virtue (even if ever soooooo boring).
At this point, in this thread, if we're to solve James's last remaining ones before then, we're stuck with the attached PDF in post #461 (as well as subsequent posts, of course). And the updates in the more recent BOW Key thread (here).
Keep at it!
/B
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Horsfield's urica (in Latin)
Inspired by Mark's latest post, I also gave Horsfield's urica yet another go [link to OD in post #383 (with some earlier unfounded guesses of mine)], ... and this time I think that I might actually have found something (even if I don't understand much of it).
If we look in Holyoake's Latin Dictionarium ..., the same work that helped us find and solve Linnaeus's velia a couple of weeks ago (in posts #516-517), we might, possibly (?) find a solution also on this one ...
In this hard-to-read book, from 1639 (here), we find the following word/entry (my blue), and excuse any misinterpreted letters:
Followed by some words in Old-school English:
Also Matthiae Martini's somewhat later Lexicon... (from 1698) lists this word (in the exact same way) here:
Apparently used by Classic authors, like Horace, and/or/alt. Pliny, and Theophrastus.
If Horsfield would have known of this word two hundred years later, in 1822, is (of course) a whole different thing. But I wouldn't be surprised if a scholar like Thomas Horsfield would have been familiar with it.
However; does either one of them make any sense? On a Bee-eater?
If not, simply ignore this post.
Björn
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Inspired by Mark's latest post, I also gave Horsfield's urica yet another go [link to OD in post #383 (with some earlier unfounded guesses of mine
)], ... and this time I think that I might actually have found something (even if I don't understand much of it). If we look in Holyoake's Latin Dictionarium ..., the same work that helped us find and solve Linnaeus's velia a couple of weeks ago (in posts #516-517), we might, possibly (?) find a solution also on this one ...
In this hard-to-read book, from 1639 (here), we find the following word/entry (my blue), and excuse any misinterpreted letters:
... or whatever it says, and onwards ... !?
Followed by some words in Old-school English:
"Hor.," for Horace ... with a rocket? :eek!:
Also Matthiae Martini's somewhat later Lexicon... (from 1698) lists this word (in the exact same way) here:
Either way, apparently, whatever it means, there seem to be such a word (or/alt. an inflected form of it), in Latin!
Apparently used by Classic authors, like Horace, and/or/alt. Pliny, and Theophrastus.
If Horsfield would have known of this word two hundred years later, in 1822, is (of course) a whole different thing. But I wouldn't be surprised if a scholar like Thomas Horsfield would have been familiar with it.
However; does either one of them make any sense? On a Bee-eater?
If not, simply ignore this post.
Björn
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mb1848
Well-known member
A Palmer's worine I think is the palm frond a palmer, traveller to the holy land would carry? When I searched google for urica our robot overlord thought I meant Eureka! Which means I found it? Horsfield was an American? Thank you Björn for the attachment. This feels so underground like passing Samizadt behind the iron curtain.
James Jobling
Well-known member
Latin urica and uruca are readings (i.e. variants) for eruca caterpillar, canker-worm.
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
"Merops urica"
As the diet of today's Chestnut-headed Bee-eater species Merops leschenaulti (like most Bee-eaters) seems to be flying/winged insects, primarily; honeybees, wasps, moths, or winged termites or ditto ants, but also dragonflies, butterflies, crickets, locusts and grasshoppers, does anyone know if the Javan/Indonesian ssp. M. l. quinticolor have a preference for an urica, or any "caterpillar, canker-worm" ... ?
Or would such an allusion (as in a possible phagonym) necessarily have resulted in an uric/a/o/-vorus (or however it would have turned out) alt./or a ditto -phagus, etc., etc. ...?
If not; it was worth a try.
/B
As the diet of today's Chestnut-headed Bee-eater species Merops leschenaulti (like most Bee-eaters) seems to be flying/winged insects, primarily; honeybees, wasps, moths, or winged termites or ditto ants, but also dragonflies, butterflies, crickets, locusts and grasshoppers, does anyone know if the Javan/Indonesian ssp. M. l. quinticolor have a preference for an urica, or any "caterpillar, canker-worm" ... ?
Or would such an allusion (as in a possible phagonym) necessarily have resulted in an uric/a/o/-vorus (or however it would have turned out) alt./or a ditto -phagus, etc., etc. ...?
If not; it was worth a try.
/B
James Jobling
Well-known member
It would be interesting to learn what the Javanese name Pirik means. I had always assumed it was onomatopoeic, but perhaps it stands for "caterpillar-eater"?!
mb1848
Well-known member
Horsfield 32 years later calls it Pirik Bee-eater Pirik Java
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/181974#page/124/mode/1up .
He did not call it a pirik-eater.
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/181974#page/124/mode/1up .
He did not call it a pirik-eater.
l_raty
laurent raty
I'd read the original image as "A palmer worme, also the hearbe rocket.", where I suspect 'worme' is an old way to write for 'worm', 'palmer worme' may refer to a worm found on palm trees, and 'hearbe' is an old way to write 'herb'.
The "hearbe rocket" = rocket, roquette, ruchetta, rucola, etc. is Eruca vesicaria / E. sativa, an edible plant commonly used, i.a., in Italian cuisine.
Paul Clapham
Well-known member
I doubt that it's even onomatopoetic, because I found this page Systomus rubripinnis (Valenciennes, 1842) online. It's a fish, and the page claims it's called "Pirik" (and several other things) in Javanese.
Yes, this is totally unhelpful in determining the meaning of "Pirik" in Javanese. But it certainly reduces the possibilities. It would probably be more practical to find somebody who speaks Javanese and ask them.
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Merops urica
In this Indonesian-English Dictionary we find one possible clue, that might, maybe could be somewhat related to any Bee-eater, catching bees and other flying insects:
However, I doubt it has anything to do with: "Pirik III" I've never seen any Bee-eater perform such an act. [Not even on a Red Snapper].
Either way; how this would, or if it even could, be turned into urica is far, far beyond my understanding.
Take it for what it´s worth. If anything at all.
Björn
PS. It is not to confuse with the same name, of the recently described beetle "Cregya urica Opitz n. sp." (from October 2019, here, pp.70-72):
"Etymology. – The trivial name, urica, constitutes a noun in apposition and refers to the type locality."
... with the Holotype from "URICA, (Venezuela)".
That's too, too far away from Java, Indonesia.
---
In this Indonesian-English Dictionary we find one possible clue, that might, maybe could be somewhat related to any Bee-eater, catching bees and other flying insects:
With such an interpretation it could, possibly indicate that the Javanese locals called it something, in the meaning the pincher, the one who snatch, like snap (the snapper), the "bee-snapper" (or a "fly-catcher"). The one catching, pinching (bees and other flying insects).
However, I doubt it has anything to do with: "Pirik III"
I've never seen any Bee-eater perform such an act. [Not even on a Red Snapper].Either way; how this would, or if it even could, be turned into urica is far, far beyond my understanding.
Take it for what it´s worth. If anything at all.
Björn
PS. It is not to confuse with the same name, of the recently described beetle "Cregya urica Opitz n. sp." (from October 2019, here, pp.70-72):
"Etymology. – The trivial name, urica, constitutes a noun in apposition and refers to the type locality."
... with the Holotype from "URICA, (Venezuela)".
That's too, too far away from Java, Indonesia.
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mb1848
Well-known member
In 1845 in Encyclopædia Metropolitana; M. urica is called Flaming Bee-eater. Page 114.
https://books.google.com/books?id=I...6AEwBXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Pirik Java&f=false if of any use. If the bird eats moths and butterflies it likely eats their larva.
https://books.google.com/books?id=I...6AEwBXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Pirik Java&f=false if of any use. If the bird eats moths and butterflies it likely eats their larva.
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Merops urica
Reichenbach (1851) says: HORSFIELD beschrieb im Jahre 1821 ... seinen Merops Urica mit Anführung des javanischen Namen ,,Pirik" aus Java, ..." (here, pp.63-64, with "Meropinae" starting on p.45), all in German. If of any help/use?
Wouldn't that be an odd diet for a (or any) Bee-eater (hunting mainly beetles, on the ground, alt. flying ones) ... ?!
/B
Reichenbach (1851) says: HORSFIELD beschrieb im Jahre 1821 ... seinen Merops Urica mit Anführung des javanischen Namen ,,Pirik" aus Java, ..." (here, pp.63-64, with "Meropinae" starting on p.45), all in German. If of any help/use?
Regarding the possible connection to its food preferences, in Kelaart's Prodromus Faunæ Zeylanicæ (from 1852, here), he wrote (about its synonym quinticolor): "They are sometimes seen in small flocks of six or eight searching for food, which chiefly consist of Coleopterus insects." (i.e. Beetles?)
Wouldn't that be an odd diet for a (or any) Bee-eater (hunting mainly beetles, on the ground, alt. flying ones) ... ?!
/B
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Though, apparently there is also a Sundanese/Javanese word; Chĕurik, meaning: to cry, to weep, (here), but maybe it doesn't mean anything at all, if taken apart ... ?
Either way, in Hoogerswerf's paper, On the Ornithology of Rhino Sanctuary Udjung Kulon in West Java (Indonesia), from 1970, published in the Natural History Bulletin of the Siam Society 23, here (pp.473-475), we find three local Bee-eaters (incl.the ssp. quinticolor), with sound descriptions and all, though neither one is (in my ears) described as sounding similar to anything like "uric"/a ... (depending on the musicality of the listener, I suppose, which in my case is just about tone-deaf).
Could the Javanese ssp. (Horsfield's former "urica") possibly be interpreted as having a particular crying, weeping voice?
Just an(other) idea ...
True, Paul, that's an even better idea, but the tricky part would be finding such a person. Here on BirdForum they seem just about as rare as any Bee-eater ...
/B
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