• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Have Nikon given up competing with the big three? (1 Viewer)

lucznik said:
Kumlieni,

I'm curious about the decision to discontinue the LXL as it seems very short-sited to me. The Edg is priced so high that there is little chance I will be able (or willing) to afford one anytime soon - no matter how wonderful it is. I can't imagine I am alone in this situation. I'm sure there are many who want a really high quality binocular but who simply cannot justify the premium price tag commanded by the so-called "Alpha" binoculars.

Why would Nikon remove their only viable entry in the ~$1000-$1300 market segment? In doing so you've basically gauranteed that all the money spent in that market is going to go toward the purchase of Leupold, Bushnell, Burris,
Minox, Meopta, Vortex, Kahles, Cabela's, etc., none of which helps Nikon at all. I can't imagine keeping the LXL around would have much (if any) affect on Edg sales.

I don't want a $300 Monarch as I consider them very "entry-level" and I already have such binoculars. I want something better. What then does Nikon have to offer?
Click to expand...

Can't answer that question. That kind of decision goes way above my pay grade. After talking to a number of birders about the LXLs over the past two years it, my feeling is, priced as they are, the LXLs were falling between two markets. They where not priced high enough to be taken seriously by many looking to buy premium optics, though they offered premium performance. But they were a bit more than most people looking for Vortex/Minox type optic where willing to spend.

I will say that it would not surprise me if Nikon puts out something between the Monarchs and the EDG at some point. We will have to wait to see.

Cameron
 
trealawboy said:
Hello Cameron

Thanks for the details. Will the eyecups be better than those on the HGs which are prone to show excessive wear? Do the EDGs also share the same water-repellent features to body and glass now seen among other leading brands, e.g. LotuTec from Zeiss, Easy to Clean from Swarovski and AquaDura from Leica?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Yes, the eyecups are much improved. I expect that the durability of all cosmetic aspects of the EDG will be greatly improved over the LXL/HG. Rubber armor, improved neck strap, overall appearance, ect.

No, the water-repellent glass was not used in the EDG, though fog repellent cloths are available from Nikon that when applied to the glass achieves the same result.

Cameron
 
oleaf said:
Hi mak,

No... that would be too simple. We all know that price does not equal performance.
But, it is a good starting point. The market determines the price (eventually). Can't make money on a bin that doesn't sell!

What I'm saying is that Nikon knows it will sell the EDG series all day long at $1299 to $1499 USD. You might even see a slight drop in LXL price to $699 to $1199.
For the Nikon line this makes sense.

Nikon knows they won't sell many bins at $1900 + USD. Initially (while the bins are not available), they will price very high to send a message to the market that says "we have the best possible bin bar none" This will get a lot of attention from consumers (see... already has) and they very well might have the best bin series in the world. But in reality, Nikon already knows they will sell just BELOW the S/Z/L top price. This gives the traditional Nikon buyer (practical, non emotional, price performance buyer) something to go for.

There are so many things that make the best brands "the best".

Lexus or BMW? All things being the same... price, performance, etc. Lexus will be technically correct but, BMW will have that intangible quality that makes you really want it. Maybe it's really small details but BMW will make you feel like they know what you want... know who you are. But... if you're not so wrapped up in a brand you can be more open to performance and you buy the Nikon... er...Lexus.

I drive a Subaru... so what do I know! But, Subaru knows their market and knows exactly what they want... and makes it for them!

Nikon knows who they are selling to. But really... this is the smallest part of the bin market (in sales numbers). To be 1st for Nikon it helps to move the Mid and lower range (like they really need to?)

Check this post in Late November 2008. See if I'm close.

Cheers
Click to expand...

With the LXL line discontinued... Nikon won't leave such a price gap.

$1299 to $1499 is where I think the EDG will sell at.

Cheers
 
Kumlieni said:
Disclosure: I work for Nikon

horukuru- that is, of course, a subjective and personal decision. I am writing this with my very own pre-production 7x42 EDG glued to fingers, which makes typing a bit challenging but I can't make myself put them down! After using them for a week at the Space Coast Birding Festival in FL and showing them off at the wild and woolly SHOT Show just recently, I have to admit that I am in love with them!
They are improved over the LXL in just about every category. I am particularly pleased that many of the changes were specifically aimed at birders. Much improved depth of field is the most critical change in my opinion, but increased field of view, and the addition of a 7x42 to the line are also birder driven changes. I won't go into greater detail here except to say that they absolutely smoke! Production 42mm models are scheduled to hit the US in April with 32mm available in June.
For a close look at the EDG check out:
http://www.nikoncuttingedg.com
Check back in the next couple of weeks for more details.

As for the LXL, I love my 8x42 LXL as well, and they are clearly feeling abandoned. I don't think that are a large number of LXLs out there to be had, but those on the market should be a great deal. I know that one shop, One Good Tern, is clearing out their LXLs at cost, but I expect others will be as well. Either way, enjoy them!

Cameron Cox
Nikon Birding Specialist
Click to expand...

Mr. Cox,
That's a nice puff piece on the 7 x 42 EDG and I'm sure it is accurate. But with all due respect there are no Nikon 7 x 42 LXL's to test them against and determine if the big price increase in the EDG's is worth the difference. For that reason, I'm surprised you are impressed with their better depth of field. You did not have any 7 x 42 LXL to compare it with. The acid tests will come when the new 8 x 42's and 10 x 42's are compared to the old LXL's.

Meanwhile your advice to buy up all the old LXL's while they still exist is well taken. Especially after considering the new and higher prices on the EDG's!
Cordially,
Bob
 
ceasar said:
Mr. Cox,
That's a nice puff piece on the 7 x 42 EDG and I'm sure it is accurate. But with all due respect there are no Nikon 7 x 42 LXL's to test them against and determine if the big price increase in the EDG's is worth the difference. For that reason, I'm surprised you are impressed with their better depth of field. You did not have any 7 x 42 LXL to compare it with. The acid tests will come when the new 8 x 42's and 10 x 42's are compared to the old LXL's.
Click to expand...


Bob,

Actually I have already used the 8x42 for a full day in the field and could have used the eights more extensively except that I prefer sevens. The increase in depth of field is noticable in both models. Frankly there isn't just a slight increase in DOF from the LXL, but a huge jump.

The exciting thing for me about the EDG is seeing the improvements we asked for incorporated in this new line. Nikon's other birding guy, Mike Freiberg, and I wrote pages and pages of recommendations for Nikon to use when designing the EDG. We took the feedback we had received from the NA birding community as well as forums like this one and our own experience and made recommendation that we felt would make the EDG the finest birding binocular in the world. Now in the finished product I can see that they took us seriously.

There is no question that the 8x42 EDG is a superior binocular when compared to the 8x42 LXL. The question of worth is a personal question that will be weighed by each individual. Quite simply, Nikon has created what we believe to be the best binoculars in the world and set the price as such. Is that worth something to you? That is your decision.

I haven't gone into great detail on the the EDG on this forum since it is clear that I am biased. What I want the members of bird forum to do is when you have a change to use a EDG binocular, compare it as close as you can to a similar model by your favorite big three company. I think you will be impressed and the term "big four" will be coined.

Cameron Cox
Nikon Birding Specialist
 
Cameron,

I have to agree with Bob that true DOF is identical in all binoculars of the same magnification, but the impression of greater DOF probably means something good is happening, like lower total aberrations or better correction of off-axis astigmatism.

The DOF question has been pretty thoroughly covered here and some other places. You might check this thread:

http://birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=81438

DOF enters the discussion at post #6 and after that there are links, mathematical formulas and backyard tests which, I think, finally result in a good understanding of what's happening with Ed's PDF in post #50.

I'm looking forward to seeing the new binoculars. Now, how about the reported new wider field/longer eye relief zoom eyepiece for the fieldscopes? Anything you can tell us about that?

Henry
 
Last edited:
I have no doubt that Nikon had the expertise to compete with other manufacturers. I did have doubts about their ability to recognize the demands of those who purchased premium priced binoculars and to respond to the needs of those who purchase such binoculars.
It seems that the firm is following, not leading in optical innovation, handling and small conveniences.

Aside from any newly perceived need for another format, I suspect that I will just wait five or ten years for the next round of innovation to obsolesce my current glasses.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :brains:
 
Pinewood said:
It seems that the firm is following, not leading in optical innovation, handling and small conveniences.
Click to expand...

Better to wait till you have them in your hands. In the past, Nikon was following in price... not much else. Now, it seems they have the innovative price figured out!:-O

Cheers
 
Kumlieni said:
Bob,

Quite simply, Nikon has created what we believe to be the best binoculars in the world and set the price as such.
Click to expand...


First let me thank you for making me aware of this binocular.

Have you done a comparison of the EDG with other makers (Leica, Zeiss and Swarovski) on the above statement?

Thanks for your input
T
 
Last edited:
Tvc15_2000 said:
First let me thank you for making me aware of this binocular.

Have you done a comparison of the EDG with other makers (Leica, Zeiss and Swarovski) on the above statement?

Thanks for your input
T
Click to expand...

Yes, we have. The Nikon engineers did extremely comprehensive testing comparing the EDG to the big three. I done some side-by-side testing in the field as well, though on a fairly limited basis given how long I had them.

I don't want to go bashing the big three's products, they make great stuff. I would prefer that each individual make it a point to test the EDG as completely as they know how against the best optics they can get their hands on. We feel confident that anyone who does so will be impressed.

Cameron Cox
Nikon Birding Specialist
 
Hi Cameron,

It's great to have an "insider" here. There has been some discussion about the lack of apparent market for a high quality 7x32 binocular. Actually if you polled birdwatchers and informed binocular users there would appear to be a high demand for such an optic. can you enlighten us as to Ninon's stand on that subject? If they want someone to test a 7x32 prototype, I volunteer!
 
John M Robinson said:
Hi Cameron,

It's great to have an "insider" here. There has been some discussion about the lack of apparent market for a high quality 7x32 binocular. Actually if you polled birdwatchers and informed binocular users there would appear to be a high demand for such an optic. can you enlighten us as to Ninon's stand on that subject? If they want someone to test a 7x32 prototype, I volunteer!
Click to expand...


John,

I would love to see a 7x32 or 7x35 high-quality roof binocular. I've already placed my neck the line by begging for a receiving a 7x42. Some of you guys need to step up and buy the 7x42 I told them birders wanted and then I'll try to get a 7x32 past them.

Cameron
 
Cameron,
The 7 x 42 binocular is a victim of the cursory shopping method most people use in picking a binocular. You have to use it a bit to really appreciate it. When compared briefly with an 8 x 42, most people will prefer the 8 x 42 because of it's extra magnification. It takes a little bit of time and practical use to discover how user friendly the 7 x 42 is. It's 6mm exit pupil is very forgiving when the IPD is a bit off center from one's pupil. It has a visibly larger FOV than a comparable 8 x 42. It almost always has longer eye relief and it has more depth of field at all distances. Fine focusing is done by merely tweaking the focus wheel. The effect of hand shake is minimized when compared to high power binoculars. It is superior in twilight and forest lighting. And it is also excellent for Raptor watching. Jerry Ligouri, author of Hawks From Every Angle uses one and has this to say about it at page 10: "The magnification one chooses should be based on what is most comfortable. I use 7x (magnification) binoculars for watching hawks because I prefer an extrawide field of view;.........skill level in identifying birds is more a matter of experience than of high-powered optics......"

I'm pleased that Nikon chose to introduce a 7 x 42 in it's new EDG line. I use a 7 x 42 as my primary binocular and I would highly recommend one to beginners, to those who need to wear glasses while using binoculars, and to older people who may experience some hand shake in using binoculars.

Cordially,
Bob
 
Last edited:
Cameron,

I'll take the opportunity to ask a Nikon insider a couple of questions as well. Firstly, when the EDG brochure speaks of tripod-adaptability, does this mean that there is a tripod-adapter thread concealed in the hinge assembly, or does one still need one of those large and cumbersome plate-and-strap adapters? And how does the focus lock feature function? Not having seen and handled the binocular yet, I'm a bit worried that it may do more harm than good if the implementation is such that it is possible to engage the lock unintentionally.

Secondly, and I'm sure this will get a "no comment" answer, how about plans to have an EDG IS (image stabilized) model available in the near future? Seriously, I feel that it is high time that one of the other major players challenge Canon in this area, since now that they are essentially being left alone offering IS binoculars for general/birding applications, they seem less inclined to further improve the product or listen to customer feedback.

Thirdly, concerning the scopes, I seriously hope that the rumors about a new wide-angle zoom are based on fact, as that is really the only serious shortcoming of the ED 82 (or ED 60 III for that matter). And digiscopers would appreciate a wide-angle 20x fixed e.p. with good eye-relief, at least if the rumored zoom would not have 20x with a reasonably wide field and good e.r. Of course, challenging Kowa with an 88-92mm ED would not hurt either.

Kimmo
 
kabsetz said:
Cameron,

I'll take the opportunity to ask a Nikon insider a couple of questions as well. Firstly, when the EDG brochure speaks of tripod-adaptability, does this mean that there is a tripod-adapter thread concealed in the hinge assembly, or does one still need one of those large and cumbersome plate-and-strap adapters? And how does the focus lock feature function? Not having seen and handled the binocular yet, I'm a bit worried that it may do more harm than good if the implementation is such that it is possible to engage the lock unintentionally.

Secondly, and I'm sure this will get a "no comment" answer, how about plans to have an EDG IS (image stabilized) model available in the near future? Seriously, I feel that it is high time that one of the other major players challenge Canon in this area, since now that they are essentially being left alone offering IS binoculars for general/birding applications, they seem less inclined to further improve the product or listen to customer feedback.

Thirdly, concerning the scopes, I seriously hope that the rumors about a new wide-angle zoom are based on fact, as that is really the only serious shortcoming of the ED 82 (or ED 60 III for that matter). And digiscopers would appreciate a wide-angle 20x fixed e.p. with good eye-relief, at least if the rumored zoom would not have 20x with a reasonably wide field and good e.r. Of course, challenging Kowa with an 88-92mm ED would not hurt either.

Kimmo
Click to expand...

1. Yes, there is a thread in the hinge.

2. I know of no such plans, but sometimes they spring stuff on us that we hadn't realized was coming.

3. I seriously hope the rumors are true as well. I have them from sources I feel are credible, but not confirmed directly from Nikon. I will try to find out more. I will post it on the Nikon spotting scope forum on BirdForum when I know something for sure.

Cameron
 
I would tend to disagree.. the Nikon range has seen some significant improvements and they do still make quality binoculars at a very affordable price.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 16 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Similar threads

J
Full Spec Sheet for Nikon 8X30 Monarch HG
Replies
3
Views
1K
JohnVan
J
S
Nikon Sporter I 8x36
Replies
3
Views
654
Swedpat
S
has530
8-16x40 XL Zoom...One Binocular to Rule Them All?
Replies
9
Views
2K
tenex
tenex
P
Nikon 8X30 E2
Replies
7
Views
2K
puprescue
P
L
Nikon Monarch M7, Hawke Frontier HD or Kowa BDII XD for the aged of sixty? All in 8x30
2
Replies
22
Views
3K
Elkhornsun
E

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top