Dreadful customer service (1 Viewer)

ceasar · Apr 21, 2014

jan van daalen said:
Bob,

Taking Oetzi's philosofical words in consideration and re-reading your post I'm trying to connect the (my) real world to this Forum.
You said, you ordered a Swarovski bin at Cameraland and Sona did the rest. So, the only thing Cameraland had to do was to pick up the phone (they've probably e-mailed) get the order out and collect the profit. Sona send it to you and takes over all service and guarantee issues. So, Cameraland has no stocking costs, delivery costs, handling costs etc. like every other shop like (I imagine) Proud Papa has.

Is this what you mean by Swarovski is moving forward in logistics/marketing compared to Leica? Cameraland does not have the same agreement with Leica, Zeiss or pick a brand?
In that particular case I would compliment leica if the don't because they honour and rerspect their "brick" dealers.
I assume Cameraland can dump their Swarovski prices because of the lack of costs, so the marketing principle behind it (from Swarovski's point of view) is "We sell more".

Since Amazon is coming to Europe/Holland this is "food for thinking".

Jan

Jan

I did not want to give the impression that CL does not keep binoculars in stock. I think it is clear that they do. Here is exactly what happened.

I ordered this particular binocular last year on 4/2/2013 from Camera Land by phone and gave them my Credit Card Information. The packing slip, dated 4/2/2013, is from SONA and the Customer: on it is shown to be Camera Land Inc with the Ship to: a consumer drop ship to me at my address. There is also a card in it from SONA directing that it be returned directly to SONA if there was a problem with it. (Note that everything in the package was new. This was not a Demo or a binocular that had been returned.)

It's possible that CL may have been out of this particular Companion model but I don't know that. The Companion comes in 3 colors and I wanted the sand colored "Traveller." Perhaps there was a shipment to CL in the works? Who knows? Anyway it came to me directly from SONA as I described above. There was no delay. What ever it was, SONA was able to work with Camera Land and resolve it.

There are reasonable explanations for it, some of which I addressed above. I don't know if Zeiss or Leica would have been in a position to do this or even if they would have done it had the same circumstances occurred with a binocular I ordered through Camera Land. What is clear is that at least 2 organizations went an extra mile on my order. Camera Land called SONA about getting one for me and SONA made a decision to send it out to me.

I doubt if this is normal practice but I do regard it as another example of SONA's good will treatment of customers.

Bob

jan van daalen · Apr 21, 2014

ceasar said:
Jan

I did not want to give the impression that CL does not keep binoculars in stock. I think it is clear that they do. Here is exactly what happened.

I ordered this particular binocular last year on 4/2/2013 from Camera Land by phone and gave them my Credit Card Information. The packing slip, dated 4/2/2013, is from SONA and the Customer: on it is shown to be Camera Land Inc with the Ship to: a consumer drop ship to me at my address. There is also a card in it from SONA directing that it be returned directly to SONA if there was a problem with it. (Note that everything in the package was new. This was not a Demo or a binocular that had been returned.)

It's possible that CL may have been out of this particular Companion model but I don't know that. The Companion comes in 3 colors and I wanted the sand colored "Traveller." Perhaps there was a shipment to CL in the works? Who knows? Anyway it came to me directly from SONA as I described above. There was no delay. What ever it was, SONA was able to work with Camera Land and resolve it.

There are reasonable explanations for it, some of which I addressed above. I don't know if Zeiss or Leica would have been in a position to do this or even if they would have done it had the same circumstances occurred with a binocular I ordered through Camera Land. What is clear is that at least 2 organizations went an extra mile on my order. Camera Land called SONA about getting one for me and SONA made a decision to send it out to me.

I doubt if this is normal practice but I do regard it as another example of SONA's good will treatment of customers.

Bob

OK, re-reading your post 66 on this subject, it got me on the wrong foot.
My bad!

Jan

dalat · Apr 22, 2014

jan van daalen said:
Taking the fact in consideration that the Birdlife Protection Society of Holland is only 15 minutes away from us, it is logical that we do not have many birders as customers.
80% of our customers go on safari in Africa.
They have never heard of birding trips to Extremadura and most of them react on the brand Swarovski: "Don't these guys make crystal?".
Here goes the advertisement/marketing theory.
After comparing the Leica HD with ('till spring 2013) the FL and the EL/SV/SLC range, most of them choose green.
They are NOT influenced by marketing or others.
Here goes the sheep theory.

@Jan
Well, knowing how difficult it is to discern the minute differences of top binoculars and make a sound purchase decision in the short time in a shop, I'd assume that for customers like yours, who have not much previous binocular experience and knowledge, the advice of the vender could play a certain role in the decision. So let's imagine the vendor says: "this brand has the best products, it's the market leader, it's our bestseller", wouldn't it be possible that many uninformed buyers just go for that brand then?

As for marketing to birders:
Svaro certainly has great products, but I agree in that their marketing probably also plays a major role in the success, not just the products alone. They really have the smartest marketing, way beyond that of Zeiss or Leica. For example this digiscoping competition, really a nice thing and most keen birders will have seen that. I haven't seen anything remotely like that from Zeiss and Leica. The last marketing thing I remember having seen from Zeiss is that cheesy and sexist hunting video on the HT, and from Leica I don't remember anything at all.

Another example: I know a tour operator and guide who specialises in birding tours in a tropical country. He was invited to Absam and got equiped with scopes and bins for himself and a couple of his local guides. No conditions attached, just use the gear. So this guy put his brandnew Ultravid (that he just bought himself) in the drawer and uses the Swaros now. And all his clients, who all are the perfect target group for top optics, see these guides with amazing skills finding all those great birds using Swaro gear. That is just a tiny example of very targeted and subtile marketing. I am pretty sure that makes a big part of Swaros recent success over Leica, Nikon and Zeiss.

jan van daalen · Apr 22, 2014

dalat said:
@Jan
Well, knowing how difficult it is to discern the minute differences of top binoculars and make a sound purchase decision in the short time in a shop, I'd assume that for customers like yours, who have not much previous binocular experience and knowledge, the advice of the vender could play a certain role in the decision. So let's imagine the vendor says: "this brand has the best products, it's the market leader, it's our bestseller", wouldn't it be possible that many uninformed buyers just go for that brand then?

As for marketing to birders:
Svaro certainly has great products, but I agree in that their marketing probably also plays a major role in the success, not just the products alone. They really have the smartest marketing, way beyond that of Zeiss or Leica. For example this digiscoping competition, really a nice thing and most keen birders will have seen that. I haven't seen anything remotely like that from Zeiss and Leica. The last marketing thing I remember having seen from Zeiss is that cheesy and sexist hunting video on the HT, and from Leica I don't remember anything at all.

Another example: I know a tour operator and guide who specialises in birding tours in a tropical country. He was invited to Absam and got equiped with scopes and bins for himself and a couple of his local guides. No conditions attached, just use the gear. So this guy put his brandnew Ultravid (that he just bought himself) in the drawer and uses the Swaros now. And all his clients, who all are the perfect target group for top optics, see these guides with amazing skills finding all those great birds using Swaro gear. That is just a tiny example of very targeted and subtile marketing. I am pretty sure that makes a big part of Swaros recent success over Leica, Nikon and Zeiss.

Florian,

Let me give you some anacdotes as a response:

A few years ago, the director of sales of Dutch Bird protection Society went with well deserved leave and in the House Magazine Birds of the DBPS was a big article with the head: The 23000 bins of Frans.
In his 23 years he seemed to have sold 23000 bins. He was asked what, is his opinion was the best of the best binocular. He answered flat out: Swarovski.
Hell brook loose!!
Both reps from leica and Zeiss could not imagine that a objective and independable institute as DBPS would take a position like that in public and a intens conversation followed.

OK, did he mean best of the best in sales?
In performance?
Let's leave that in the middle, but somehow Swarovski deserved that credit and somehow Leica and Zeiss did not!!
It is not all about advertisement and marketing. Trust is earned!

As for our sales strategy:
As a dealer from almost every brand do you think I care which brand I sell?
It's NOT about profit margins. Swarovski offers 28% and leica 34, so it would be much more in my interest to "push" Leica if I would follow your comment.
We do very well because we educate the customer and listen to his/her needs. If it ends up to a A-fabric both Leica and Swarovski is shown on the table. Both from Leica we have cut trough models of the Ultravid, Trinovid, Geovid and the scope. Same counts for Swarovski. EL, SV, CL, SLC. They are shown and explained from both brands and still the choice is green.
The average sales talk take about one hour per customer. We take that time because the choice of that bin is (let's put it dramaticly) for life.

Yes, marketing "helps" a lot. But doesn't Zeiss do exactly the same as Swarovski as you explained? Down here the top expert of birding has been given a Zeiss Photoscope for free for lecturing and use in the field. Every brand does those things. Not so long ago he gave a birding lecture and carried his photoscope with him explaining the audience (I was also there) he took the amazing beautifull pictures with the Zeiss Photoscope. Not long after that a guy walks into my shop ordering that scope because he was also there. I send him to DBPS, because I refuse to sell Zeiss anymore.
So yes, marketing helps but it is not a Swarovski privilege. Every brand does it.

Years ago, I went on a Zeiss factory tour with other shopkeepers from the hunting and birding area. In the bus to Wetzlar they showed us a huntingvideo from Africa shooting big game. The outdoors and birding people protested. My head spinned. How stupid can you be.
Marketing helps. Sometimes

.

Jan

dalat · Apr 22, 2014

jan van daalen said:
As for our sales strategy:
As a dealer from almost every brand do you think I care which brand I sell?
It's NOT about profit margins. Swarovski offers 28% and leica 34, so it would be much more in my interest to "push" Leica if I would follow your comment.

I just imagine, that if you are as open with your opinions to your customers as you are here (and why shouldn't you), then quite surely this will have some impact on the buying decision, at least for buyers that are new to top optics.

With binoculars, I now know very well what I want and what I need, so if I ever buy a new one, I will not listen much to what the vendor says (only few stores have staff that really know sth. about binoculars). However, recently I bought a new Camera, I have not much clue about them despite some previous reading, and I basically went with what the vendor recommended...

jan van daalen said:
Years ago, I went on a Zeiss factory tour with other shopkeepers from the hunting and birding area. In the bus to Wetzlar they showed us a huntingvideo from Africa shooting big game. The outdoors and birding people protested. My head spinned. How stupid can you be.
Marketing helps. Sometimes.
Jan

Yes, exactly, this is pretty much what I mean. I think the Swarovski guys take great care about what messages they send to which of the target groups, while at Zeiss and Leica it is more diletantish. From last couple of years, as a birder, you get the impression that Zeiss cares only about hunters and Leica only about luxury shoppers from China.

jan van daalen · Apr 22, 2014

dalat said:
I just imagine, that if you are as open with your opinions to your customers as you are here (and why shouldn't you), then quite surely this will have some impact on the buying decision, at least for buyers that are new to top optics.

With binoculars, I now know very well what I want and what I need, so if I ever buy a new one, I will not listen much to what the vendor says (only few stores have staff that really know sth. about binoculars). However, recently I bought a new Camera, I have not much clue about them despite some previous reading, and I basically went with what the vendor recommended...

Yes, exactly, this is pretty much what I mean. I think the Swarovski guys take great care about what messages they send to which of the target groups, while at Zeiss and Leica it is more diletantish. From last couple of years, as a birder, you get the impression that Zeiss cares only about hunters and Leica only about luxury shoppers from China.

Florian,

I can only speak for myself and to some extend for DBPS, since the salesmen there, after the "debacle" are absolutely forbidden to give any preference for a brand to the customer.
They sell the Conquest HD best in the middle class and green in the upperclass.
Yes, Swarovski is a smooth oiled machine in every aspect of the business but to make this aspect THE key for their succes, is a bridge to far for me.

Jan

dalat · Apr 22, 2014

jan van daalen said:
but to make this aspect THE key for their succes, is a bridge to far for me.

Agree, not the key but most likely marketing is major factor in Swaro's success. I think the competion are much closer to Swaro in the quality of their products than in the quality of their marketing.

jan van daalen · Apr 22, 2014

dalat said:
Agree, not the key but most likely marketing is major factor in Swaro's success. I think the competion are much closer to Swaro in the quality of their products than in the quality of their marketing.

Does this mean that you (like most) think that Swarovski is superior to the other two?

I agree that marketing is a proven and major factor in every business.

Jan

dalat · Apr 22, 2014

jan van daalen said:
Does this mean that you (like most) think that Swarovski is superior to the other two?

No, of course I don't think so

Actually I don't know. I've never looked through an HT and only occasionally through a Swarovision.

When I bought my current bin, I compared the 8x42s Ultravid HD, the old EL and the FL. The Ultravid won, mainly because of general feel, compactness and good stray light control. With these priorities it would probably also win against the new EL and the HT. For me at least.

I agree though that Swaro has the most complete, and recent line-up of products. Zeiss is catching up, but the 32 FL successors are still missing (and that is what I would be interested mainly for another bin). And also Leica would need to bring out something new, if they want me to buy another Leica, as I have the Ultravid HD already

jan van daalen · Apr 22, 2014

dalat said:
No, of course I don't think so Actually I don't know. I've never looked through an HT and only occasionally through a Swarovision.

When I bought my current bin, I compared the 8x42s Ultravid HD, the old EL and the FL. The Ultravid won, mainly because of general feel, compactness and good stray light control. With these priorities it would probably win against the new EL and the HT. For me at least.

I agree though that Swaro has the most complete, and recent line-up of products. Zeiss is catching up, but the 32 FL successors are still missing (and that is what I would be interested mainly for another bin). And also Leica would need to bring out something new, if they want me to buy another Leica, as I have the Ultravid HD already

LOL, you outperformance me by miles!!

'Till this year I've always used the Bausch&Lomb 8x42 Elite together with my 7x30SLC, something I always admitt to the customers when asked.
One of them bought my Elite. Snif!!
So nowadays I use a trade in and its all about enjoying the nature.

Jan

ceasar · Apr 22, 2014

jan van daalen said:
Florian,
..............................................................................................

Years ago, I went on a Zeiss factory tour with other shopkeepers from the hunting and birding area. In the bus to Wetzlar they showed us a huntingvideo from Africa shooting big game. The outdoors and birding people protested. My head spinned. How stupid can you be.
Marketing helps. Sometimes.

Jan

Now that is interesting! Do you think that the outdoors and birding people who protested don't know that Swarovski also sells to the Hunting Market?

Swarovski might be the most popular brand of the top rated brands of binoculars used by hunters in the USA.

Why would these people make an issue with Zeiss about it? It doesn't make sense.

Bob

dalat · Apr 22, 2014

ceasar said:
Why would these people make an issue with Zeiss about it? It doesn't make sense.

From many discussions around hunting here in BF, I learned that there seems to be quite a difference between Europe and the US. In Europe, the birding and nature conservation communities seem to be pretty much apart from the hunting community, in many countries they are basically despising each other. In the US birders seem to have a more relaxed attitude towards hunters and hunting. Perhaps this is why you are surprised about Jan's story.

To me, it makes perfectly sense that these people were upset.
I know that Zeiss and the others sell to hunters, still I wouldn't want to be shown movies about people having fun killing Rhinos and Lions in Africa.

Ok, eventhough this thread has ventured far off topic anyway, we better don't start another hunting discussion.

oetzi · Apr 22, 2014

jan van daalen said:
Years ago, I went on a Zeiss factory tour with other shopkeepers from the hunting and birding area. In the bus to Wetzlar they showed us a huntingvideo from Africa shooting big game. The outdoors and birding people protested. My head spinned. How stupid can you be.
Marketing helps. Sometimes.

Jan

Did they protest because they had to endure these videos while in the bus or the fact that Zeiss sells binos to hunters?
Mabe those who like to watch animals dont like the aproach of killing them for fun?
Had it been a movie about birds being killed in Malta or Egypt, would a protest be ok? Is there a differnce between feathered animals and furred ones being killed for fun?

Troubador · Apr 22, 2014

dalat said:
Agree, not the key but most likely marketing is major factor in Swaro's success. I think the competion are much closer to Swaro in the quality of their products than in the quality of their marketing.

Hi Florian

I think you are right about this. Especially if you call the appearance ('design') of the bins to be part of the marketing strategy.

When the original ELs came out they looked so different (and performed so well) I bought a pair and thus, briefly, deserted Zeiss.

Most bins I looked at when I wanted to down-magnification from 10x to 8x had a similar chunky black-rubber look, and there was this graceful new bin from Swaro. It had two different textures on the surface, one grippy and a pleasant shade of a friendly green and the other a sexy smooth black surface. The two tubes were gracefully parallel sided and felt good to grip in the hand.

IMHO this totally new appearance (plus the excellent optics) made them and entirely new proposition to the binocular-buying public. When Swaro's EL became more popular I am sure that it was no barrier to its future sales growth that you could recognise the model from a long distance. It's twin bridge design and green / black colouring made it 'advertise itself'. This, I believe also contributed to its growth in popularity,

Lee

SteveTS · Apr 22, 2014

It's hardly surprising that Swarovski know how to market. As a global concern trading in fashion jewellery (with two or three multi-storey, high turnover shops rammed full of tourists in Vienna alone), designer jewellery, crystal jewellery and accessories, synthetic and natural gemstones, top-end chandeliers, reflectors, cats-eyes & road marking studs, lighting, and corporate gifts they have a lot of experience.

And yes, you can buy their optics in the jewellery shops. Awareness of the Swarovski brand is high.

Of the other manufacturers only Nikon has higher brand awareness with the general public, they own the middle ground afterall.

oetzi · Apr 22, 2014

Samandag said:
Of the other manufacturers only Nikon has higher brand awareness with the general public, they own the middle ground afterall.

Unfortunately, the are even worse in marketing their excellent binoculars.

jan van daalen · Apr 22, 2014

Oetzi,

The context of the example was marketing strategy.
Was is marketing/strategy wise by to place dealers in a position where they do not want to be found.
Personally I do not have anything against hunting as long as it is done the right way.
Japanese whalehunting pissis me of, mostly because one of my passions is scuba diving and I've seen them from close, very close. For them its just food. I imagine they search the ocean with top grade optics, but I will not be found/placed by one of these optic brands in a pro whale hunting movie. Neither do I want to be positioned in a big game shooting movie out of Africa during a factory trip.

It's just not my cup of tea.

Bob,

I think Florian just put it right.

Jan

SteveTS · Apr 22, 2014

oetzi said:
Unfortunately, the are even worse in marketing their excellent binoculars.

Sour grapes, oetzi ?

If you mail Nikon and ask for review samples for your blog and they don't reply...

Disregarding the massive brand placement through their camera advertising (every month on every tv screen everywhere in the developed world) their bino sales dominate the middle market so clearly their approach works, and that's despite the unhelpful global price disparities.

Best wishes,

Steinadler · Apr 23, 2014

Oh come on now. That video was not sexist - cheesy yes, sexist no. The lady even had nice old BGATs.

Zeiss' marketing is not its strength. I'm waiting for more communication on the 54s but nothing...

dalat said:
The last marketing thing I remember having seen from Zeiss is that cheesy and sexist hunting video on the HT, and from Leica I don't remember anything at all.

ceasar · Apr 23, 2014

dalat said:
From many discussions around hunting here in BF, I learned that there seems to be quite a difference between Europe and the US. In Europe, the birding and nature conservation communities seem to be pretty much apart from the hunting community, in many countries they are basically despising each other. In the US birders seem to have a more relaxed attitude towards hunters and hunting. Perhaps this is why you are surprised about Jan's story.

To me, it makes perfectly sense that these people were upset.
I know that Zeiss and the others sell to hunters, still I wouldn't want to be shown movies about people having fun killing Rhinos and Lions in Africa.

Ok, eventhough this thread has ventured far off topic anyway, we better don't start another hunting discussion.[/QUOTE

Florian,

OK. I think I understand.

It's OK for Swarovski (or any other binocular manufacturer) to sell their binoculars to both the Birding market and the Hunting market as long as they don't bring up that fact when engaged in marketing events aimed at the European Birding market.:smoke:

Bob

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