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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Zeiss 8x42FL small sweet spot or edge to edge sharpness (1 Viewer)

Leif said:
I would describe it as slightly lower contrast. 'Dull' does seem a bit strong though descriptive.

Leif

I guess I was expecting a lot more from Swarovski. When you pay as much money for these, I expect- Wow. I will not take way that the Swarovski EL is not excellent but when you compare a Nikon HG 8x42 for 800 US dollars to European Glass like Swarovski for 1600 US dollars on this particular aspect "dull" sets it straight. Even B&L Elite is brighter than the Swarovski to my eyes.


Like I said before I will wait a while before I put 1600 dollars into a bin that still isn't on par with my SE.

Best Regards,
Carlos
 
Zolarcon said:
I guess I was expecting a lot more from Swarovski. When you pay as much money for these, I expect- Wow. I will not take way that the Swarovski EL is not excellent but when you compare a Nikon HG 8x42 for 800 US dollars to European Glass like Swarovski for 1600 US dollars on this particular aspect "dull" sets it straight. Even B&L Elite is brighter than the Swarovski to my eyes.

Like I said before I will wait a while before I put 1600 dollars into a bin that still isn't on par with my SE.

Best Regards,
Carlos
This is a bit off-topic to this forum, but now that my comparo is done, and all binos either returned (or kept), I will say that I was disappointed in the Swarovski EL 8.5x42. I thought the focus mechanism felt a bit cheesy - plasticky - and there was a bit of slop in the focuser when changing directions that, while not a big deal, was nevertheless a little irritating to me. I thought the view was slightly flat (dull?), as described above. I felt that the ergos were nice, and I liked the extra .5x, but that the binos themselves felt like they might be a bit less robust than some of the others.

In my mind, the ELs are definitely overpriced. I believe my LXLs are better, and they were $600 less. I would have happily spent the extra money on the ELs had I thought they warranted it. I wanted to buy them. And what can I say about the CLO review that dissed the LXLs and hyped the ELs? Well, I think that the ratings that were given were goofy and misleading.

After having used my Nikon 8x42 LXLs in the field several times under different conditions, I am very happy that I went with them instead of the ELs, or the 8x42 FLs. The Nikons are just superb. I love the way they handle, the ultra-sharp, contrasty, saturated views, their operation, and their build quality.

OK - I'll shup up now on this. :)
 
John Traynor said:
... Whenever I use my Ultravid, I recall the admonition that edge sharpness doesn’t matter because you should “point your bin at the target”. As an SE user I could look around the image, but as an Ultravid user I happily point a little more often. I enjoy both bins a lot and I’m sure FL owners enjoy theirs. Get to a store and find one you can live with.
...
John

John,

I forgot to compliment you on an extremely insightful post. So, before it gets away from me — you hit the nail on the head!

It makes a great deal of sense to me that the combination of hyperstereo and retinal curvature correction (i.e., flat field) would combine to make the SE's stereo perceptual field easier to navigate. In short, one can switch attention within the scene without moving the binoculars as much. Of course, good DOF would also be an important factor.

Regards,
Elkcub
 
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dwalton said:
CLO review that dissed the LXLs and hyped the ELs? Well, I think that the ratings that were given were goofy and misleading.

The Nikon Premier LXs tested by Living Bird were prototypes (clearly stated in the article). Maybe the production bins are better. The "hype" for the EL was mainly for ergonomics and handling. I find it interesting that the Swarovski EL, so very recently and widely considered to be the "ultimate," has fallen from grace so dramatically. Note: I'm not an EL owner. Rather, I'm one of the notorious Zeiss FL owners. I've read comments in this forum about the Zeiss that I thought were "goofy and misleading." I just have to accept that not everybody agrees with my enlightened opinion ;) . Maybe the same situation prevails with your opinion of the Nikon.
 
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Curtis Croulet said:
...I just have to accept that not everybody agrees with my enlightened opinion ;) . Maybe the same situation prevails with your opinion of the Nikon.

Agreed! My opinions are just opinions. There are more experienced folks out there who have different and valid views. I was fortunate in that I had these various high-end binos in my office for 2-3 weeks, all at the same time, and I was able to go back and forth quite often to compare them. It was fun comparing them all to the Pentax 8x43 SPs too.

If the FLs that I tried out had just a bit more eye relief, I likely would own them now. They were wonderful. When I looked for it, I could see how the image got a little soft outside the sweet spot on the FLs, but I didn't find it objectionable. And I really liked how they felt in my hands, the focuser action, and the build quality.

Heck - all the high-end binos are great. Many of the mid-range binos are excellent too. It's fun comparing and discussing them, but even more fun using them in the field.
 
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dwalton said:
If the FLs that I tried out had just a bit more eye relief, I likely would own them now.

I wear glasses all the time (up to age 45, I never wore glasses), but not real thick ones. For me the eye-relief of the 8x42 FL is ample.
 
Leif said:
... To be honest I have not seen any convincing explanation of differences in perception of CA. ... My personal prejudice is that it is not physiological i.e. in the eye, but I accept that I might be wrong. I sold several highly rated Nikon 35mm lenses due to excess CA in the images produced. The reviews usually ignore the CA.

Leif

Leif,

In the last few days I evaluated CA comparatively between four of my own binoculars. The weather in my area lent itself to doing this. My primary reason was to determine, introspectively, how I would react (mentally), rather than analyzing the visual details. The long and short of it is that behaviorally I did things quite differently than I would normally when using binoculars. Essentially, this required that I manipuate instrument pointing, move my eyes, and above all attend to the binoculars themselves rather than to the birds. In the process I became keenly aware of the high contrast backlit situations that made the annoying color fringe effects observable. Moreover, once having learned to do it, a "compulsive attention" (another CA) developed that persisted for quite a while, and I became consciously aware that I had developed a localized fascination for the phenomenon.

Anyway, having done this personal experiment for the first (and only) time, I believe that anyone can observe optical CA if they learn the behavior, which all binoculars produce to some extent — differing perhaps in pervasiveness. However, at least for high-end binoculars I'm also convinced that compulsive attention behavior is an integral part of the problem and must be unlearned for the user to be free of it.

Basically, that requires a form of behavior modification. In my case I broke the compulsion (or fasination) by going into the field. When I discovered a family of Eared Grebes in full plumage my attention shifted to the important matters in life, and this was followed by a splendid family of Surf Scoters that sealed the deal.

Of course, this topic has received much discussion on several threads so I apologize for walking on sacred footprints. I wonder how my conclusions square with yours.

Elkcub
 
elkcub said:
Leif,

In the last few days I evaluated CA comparatively between four of my own binoculars. The weather in my area lent itself to doing this. My primary reason was to determine, introspectively, how I would react (mentally), rather than analyzing the visual details. The long and short of it is that behaviorally I did things quite differently than I would normally when using binoculars. Essentially, this required that I manipuate instrument pointing, move my eyes, and above all attend to the binoculars themselves rather than to the birds. In the process I became keenly aware of the high contrast backlit situations that made the annoying color fringe effects observable. Moreover, once having learned to do it, a "compulsive attention" (another CA) developed that persisted for quite a while, and I became consciously aware that I had developed a localized fascination for the phenomenon.

Anyway, having done this personal experiment for the first (and only) time, I believe that anyone can observe optical CA if they learn the behavior, which all binoculars produce to some extent — differing perhaps in pervasiveness. However, at least for high-end binoculars I'm also convinced that compulsive attention behavior is an integral part of the problem and must be unlearned for the user to be free of it.

Basically, that requires a form of behavior modification. In my case I broke the compulsion (or fasination) by going into the field. When I discovered a family of Eared Grebes in full plumage my attention shifted to the important matters in life, and this was followed by a splendid family of Surf Scoters that sealed the deal.

Of course, this topic has received much discussion on several threads so I apologize for walking on sacred footprints. I wonder how my conclusions square with yours.

Elkcub

Elkcub: Yes this path has been gone over so many times that we are now in danger of falling into the ruts. There is in a separate thread a picture from Ilkka in Finland that shows how severe it can be i.e. it is not necessarily a result of obsessive compulsive disorder. It depends strongly on the instrument and on image contrast: hence if you happen to bird in a shady wood, then CA will not be an issue, but watch a crow against snow on a sunny day and it might be seen, depending on the instrument.

I remember someone saying that he had tested a Nikon 8x32 HG and thought it was one of the best corrected binoculars he had ever tried. I owned one and sold it due to excessive CA. I remember watching Red Kites in flight and being distracted by the equally large equally bright purple siblings. I have tried three samples and all were the same. Some binoculars have so little CA that I can, as you say, forget about it - e.g. Zeiss 8x42 FL, Nikon 8x32 SE, most/all 8x20 compact binoculars, Nikon 8x40 Egret - whilst others - e.g. Nikon 8x32 HG, Steiner 10x40 Rocky S - show so much that it bothers me and distracts from the bird. Sometimes CA in extreme cases can prevent an id as the bird becomes a hazy smear.

One possible complication is that CA often gets worse when the eye and binoculars are not aligned. So if you do not wear glasses, the way that the eye tubes align with your eye sockets will influence the view you see (both in terms of CA, but also other aberrations which also get worse off axis).

As you say, I think people have difference tolerance levels. Some people object to colour casts, whereas I am fairly insensitive to them, and in fact I struggle to determine what the cast if any is. Others object to distortion, whereas I can usually ignore it without it being distracting (I have learnt to ignore it). Clearly one person's review of an instrument is far from impartial.

That is why the BF mantras seems to be "Try before you buy" and "Form your own opinion".

Leif
 
Leif,

Okay. Obviously I've not plumbed the CA depths as you, Ilkka, and others have, and I happily content myself with escaping this one scarey behavioral experience. At least for me the fasination pitfall is crystal clear, although I do not by any means suggest that binoculars don't differ significantly along these lines, or that it can be overcome as mind over matter. Although all of my binocs do have it (in different colors), fortunately I have to go out of my way to find it. There I quit the topic to live in blissful ignorance.

Best regards,
-elk
 
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