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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Suppression vs reporting; birders’ obligations during lockdown. (1 Viewer)

Take a book and enjoy - btw This not the first or even the second time you have made a comment to the effect that my posts are not welcome on a thread either due to their length or content - instead of unhelpful sarcastic jabs at my posts why don’t you just block them? (Or just go and watch tv or something

Oh dear. Sorry if it seems that way - that wasn't the intent at all, I can honestly say that I've never intentionally dismissed your posts or thought they weren't welcome.

(The banter between you and Paul was interesting(!), but hey. (And I've said myself on threads that it is all a mess.)

Smiley added to post above.
 
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Just back from a couple of hours perambulation (didn't meet any policemen, politicians or even lawyers (that I was aware of ;) )).

I'm not really a morning person, but the roads and footpaths were eerily quiet at the unearthly hour of 7:50 when I left the house. Two dog walkers, one jogger, and a few cars was about it. No BBRC rares to keep quiet about either unfortunately.
 
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Rosbifs - this article talks about how the French regulations have tightened - https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...ould-crumble-as-frustration-grows-police-warn

DB - Statutory Instrument came into force at 1.00pm on 26.03.20 (para 1(1)) & reviewed at least every 21 days with the first review by 16.04.20 (para 3(2)). I am not expecting a tightening or clarification in the same way as France and I'm not expecting to be out for my wife's birthday on 17th April and buying a present is definitely not 'essential'. ;) I hope that I am wrong. Not on the present but on the tightening. I would like to see it tightened.

Stay safe all
 
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I have been controlled twice on trips out.

At the same time the police station is opposite me. There are 6? attached houses. Their kids are playing together all the time - football, basketball, bikes etc and all the police got together outside for a bbq yesterday...
 
DB - Statutory Instrument came into force at 1.00pm on 26.03.20 (para 1(1)) & reviewed at least every 21 days with the first review by 16.04.20 (para 3(2)).
Thanks I realised that ;)- The PACE amendment also is concurrently enacted - Section 24 the police powers of summary arrests now includes in para (5) Public Order and Department of Health offences as outlined in the SI (para 9 (6)) - and of course, even more worrying, the power to detain anyone suspected of being infected (under the Coronavirus Act 2020) so don’t cough if there’s a copper around!

Nothing of note yet from anyone re. interesting sightings/rarities? The suppression argument may end up for me at least being an ‘academic’ one only unfortunately.
 
Take a book and enjoy - btw This not the first or even the second time you have made a comment to the effect that my posts are not welcome on a thread either due to their length or content - instead of unhelpful sarcastic jabs at my posts why don’t you just block them? (Or just go and watch tv or something B :))

Your response is harsh and unfair. dantheman posted some 7 hours after your post that you incorrectly and negatively reacted to. He only said he was going out this morning that's all, nothing else as he's explained. A phrase us Southerners, Bobbies on the beat and others use that is succinct is, " Wind you're neck in!". If you think that is rude, and are unwilling to absorb the thought , (not an attack), then please block me. The correct action would be to apologise to dantheman by a PM.

Thanks.
 
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Just back from a couple of hours perambulation (didn't meet any policemen, politicians or even lawyers (that I was aware of ;) )).

I'm not really a morning person, but the roads and footpaths were eerily quiet at the unearthly hour of 7:50 when I left the house. Two dog walkers, one jogger, and a few cars was about it. No BBRC rares to keep quiet about either unfortunately.

So basically, restrictions are just for the rest of us are they, you're ignoring them and telling us all you're doing it............?
 
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So basically, restrictions are just for the rest of us are they, you're ignoring them and telling us all you're doing it............?

First time been out for a few days, on foot and didn't come within yards of anyone else. Can't seem to find any guidance on how long you can/should stay out on eg the Gov.uk website. Wouldn't dream of going twitching or anything similarly frivolous.
 
First time been out for a few days, on foot and didn't come within yards of anyone else. Can't seem to find any guidance on how long you can/should stay out on eg the Gov.uk website. Wouldn't dream of going twitching or anything similarly frivolous.

Agreed. Whilst several cabinet ministers have at various times made references to limiting exercise to one hour a day, the official guidance makes no mention of how long you can exercise for.
 
The Jersey government has issued guidance that we can leave our homes to exercise or get fresh air for a maximum of 2 hours once per day, so long as we maintain a 2m gap from other people. We are expressly permitted to drive to a location to do so, the return journey being included in the 2 hour maximum. Surprisingly sensible for our authorities.
 
The Jersey government has issued guidance that we can leave our homes to exercise or get fresh air for a maximum of 2 hours once per day, so long as we maintain a 2m gap from other people. We are expressly permitted to drive to a location to do so, the return journey being included in the 2 hour maximum. Surprisingly sensible for our authorities.

Whilst the Scottish government adopt a 'do as I say, not what I do' attitude, priceless.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52171694
 
It’s been really interesting seeing everyone’s take on this, with the expected range of views, very well expressed.

Thank you to Paul & Deb for the legal stuff, not that I’ve waded through it in any greet detail, I fear my grasp on the legal finer points is every bit as vague as that of any Secretary of State. Although, while I couldn’t possibly say where the precise demarcation between essential and non-essential travel lies, I think I can still clearly see that certain things lie beyond it, which has stopped me from going anywhere at all by car for nearly two weeks now. (I haven’t even been shopping, the missus reckons she is temperamentally better suited to doing the weekly shop in the current conditions than I am, and who am I to argue.)

A certain amount has been said on responsibility, so I though I would offer my take. Responsibility is not a zero sum game. If I were to release news of a rarity then any birder turning up to it, particularly by car, is entirely responsible for his or her decision to do so. But also, I am entirely responsible for creating the circumstances for their decision to twitch. My responsibility is in no way lessened by the recognition of theirs. I’ve been birding a wee while now, been on a few twitches, met some twitchers. If I broadcast the news that there is a big rarity, and as a result 40 or 50 people turn up for it the following morning, I cannot in all honestly say “I had no idea that would happen”. A more appropriate comment would be “yeah, thought that might happen”. Whether their actions do or don’t contravene the current stipulations (they do, in my opinion), they certainly run the risk of spreading the virus. A very, very small risk, some might say, but a deadly one, and if fatalities occurred as a result of their actions that would be my fault. Their fault too, but undisputedly mine.

So how about this; someone finds a biggy on your local patch and, following the rationale outlined above, supresses it. What is your response? Disappointment for sure, probably anger, but would it be anger at the situation you were in? Or anger at the birder in question? Are rarity finders that take the tough but, in my view, responsible decision to keep news quiet going to find themselves ostracised? Trolled and abused online? Harassed and abused out in the field? This might seem melodramatic, but someone, somewhere, in the next few weeks, is going to have to make this kind of decision. If my (walking distance) local patch were a west country headland, or some east Anglian backwater, or a stretch of scrubby east coast (rather than a small dead gravel pit and flooded field corner in north east Wales) then these questions would certainly be exercising me right now.
 
It’s been really interesting seeing everyone’s take on this, with the expected range of views, very well expressed.

So how about this; someone finds a biggy on your local patch and, following the rationale outlined above, supresses it. What is your response? Disappointment for sure, probably anger, but would it be anger at the situation you were in? Or anger at the birder in question? Are rarity finders that take the tough but, in my view, responsible decision to keep news quiet going to find themselves ostracised? Trolled and abused online? Harassed and abused out in the field? This might seem melodramatic, but someone, somewhere, in the next few weeks, is going to have to make this kind of decision. If my (walking distance) local patch were a west country headland, or some east Anglian backwater, or a stretch of scrubby east coast (rather than a small dead gravel pit and flooded field corner in north east Wales) then these questions would certainly be exercising me right now.

Almost certainly as the result of not sticking to the rules if they do.

Some people are just coming up with bespoke, interpretations of the rules, tailored to excuse them of any responsibility whilst doing just as they please.
 
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The Jersey government has issued guidance that we can leave our homes to exercise or get fresh air for a maximum of 2 hours once per day, so long as we maintain a 2m gap from other people. We are expressly permitted to drive to a location to do so, the return journey being included in the 2 hour maximum. Surprisingly sensible for our authorities.

How long does it take to drive round Jersey? 3:)

John
 
It’s been really interesting seeing everyone’s take on this, with the expected range of views, very well expressed.

Thank you to Paul & Deb for the legal stuff, not that I’ve waded through it in any greet detail, I fear my grasp on the legal finer points is every bit as vague as that of any Secretary of State. Although, while I couldn’t possibly say where the precise demarcation between essential and non-essential travel lies, I think I can still clearly see that certain things lie beyond it, which has stopped me from going anywhere at all by car for nearly two weeks now. (I haven’t even been shopping, the missus reckons she is temperamentally better suited to doing the weekly shop in the current conditions than I am, and who am I to argue.)

A certain amount has been said on responsibility, so I though I would offer my take. Responsibility is not a zero sum game. If I were to release news of a rarity then any birder turning up to it, particularly by car, is entirely responsible for his or her decision to do so. But also, I am entirely responsible for creating the circumstances for their decision to twitch. My responsibility is in no way lessened by the recognition of theirs. I’ve been birding a wee while now, been on a few twitches, met some twitchers. If I broadcast the news that there is a big rarity, and as a result 40 or 50 people turn up for it the following morning, I cannot in all honestly say “I had no idea that would happen”. A more appropriate comment would be “yeah, thought that might happen”. Whether their actions do or don’t contravene the current stipulations (they do, in my opinion), they certainly run the risk of spreading the virus. A very, very small risk, some might say, but a deadly one, and if fatalities occurred as a result of their actions that would be my fault. Their fault too, but undisputedly mine.

So how about this; someone finds a biggy on your local patch and, following the rationale outlined above, supresses it. What is your response? Disappointment for sure, probably anger, but would it be anger at the situation you were in? Or anger at the birder in question? Are rarity finders that take the tough but, in my view, responsible decision to keep news quiet going to find themselves ostracised? Trolled and abused online? Harassed and abused out in the field? This might seem melodramatic, but someone, somewhere, in the next few weeks, is going to have to make this kind of decision. If my (walking distance) local patch were a west country headland, or some east Anglian backwater, or a stretch of scrubby east coast (rather than a small dead gravel pit and flooded field corner in north east Wales) then these questions would certainly be exercising me right now.


I think in the law that releasing information is not accepting responsibility for others actions. Yes you might be perceived as tempting them but you are not the one jumping in the car and travelling. I don't think any court would argue that you compelled them...

Who in their right mind would try and use that as a defence? What would you gain by it? My car does 100mph and there is an accelerator under my right foot but that doesn't mean I could claim that the car manufacturer is responsible for my speeding.

I love reading about these 'rare' birds wherever they are, next door next town next country England Finland I could on.
 
I think in the law that releasing information is not accepting responsibility for others actions. Yes you might be perceived as tempting them but you are not the one jumping in the car and travelling. I don't think any court would argue that you compelled them...

Who in their right mind would try and use that as a defence? What would you gain by it? My car does 100mph and there is an accelerator under my right foot but that doesn't mean I could claim that the car manufacturer is responsible for my speeding.

I love reading about these 'rare' birds wherever they are, next door next town next country England Finland I could on.

There is something in the civil law, mainly aimed at the protection of children called 'allurements', maybe that needs to apply.

It basically states that where something is deemed as extra enticing, then measures outside the norm are required to prevent harm.
 
There is something in the civil law, mainly aimed at the protection of children called 'allurements', maybe that needs to apply.

It basically states that where something is deemed as extra enticing, then measures outside the norm are required to prevent harm.

Rather different situation to putting news out of a rare bird you've found, as the objective of such an act during the current lockdown would simply be to notify others of your find; there would be no intent from the finder to allure others to travel to see the bird for themselves.
 
Rather different situation to putting news out of a rare bird you've found, as the objective of such an act during the current lockdown would simply be to notify others of your find; there would be no intent from the finder to allure others to travel to see the bird for themselves.

That's not how it works, no intent required, just neglect.

I'm smiling as I write but if birder A was arrested and fined, he might sue birder B for putting out the news which acted as an allurement which it could be argued, was a foreseeable result......over to you Paul...B :)
 
I'm an atheist but never has Genesis 4:9 "Am I my brother's keeper?" seemed more relevant. We all know that if we put out news of some "mega" (national or local) then there will be some who will be tempted and likely to breach social distancing regulations. Whether or not that will increase the likelihood of infection may be debatable but it may well contribute to the tightening of regulations to the disadvantage of us all. Yes, the weight of responsibility will bear upon those who break the rules but those that put news out will not be free from blame.
 
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