Renaming all North American Birds (1 Viewer)

Sangahyando · Jun 19, 2020

Xenospiza said:
The Dutch name for White-rumped Swift was changed recently. Look at the scientific name and you may guess why. I was attacked by some for suggesting this name needed changing at first, partly because many Dutch birders were not aware that this name was offensive.

In other languages, the word "Kaffer" doesn't necessarily have such strong negative connotations as in Dutch/Afrikaans (or in Arabic, where it probably originated from).

jurek said:
One could try to get BirdLife to rename Coal Tit into Carbon-neutral Tit.

Only if they also rechristen "Great Tit" to "Garden Shrike".

dantheman said:
Not forgetting that the English language has absorbed and appropriated most (all?) of its words from elsewhere.

It has certainly absorbed an unusual amount of "foreign" words (IIRC more than 50%, mostly Old French and Latin), however it's not "all", not by a long stretch.

Xenospiza · Jun 19, 2020

jurek said:
One could try to get BirdLife to rename Coal Tit into Carbon-neutral Tit.

While you're at it, please also suggest to change the generic name of all Paridae to Chickadee. A Tufted Titmouse isn't a big-breasted little mammal at all.

dantheman · Jun 19, 2020

Sangahyando said:
It has certainly absorbed an unusual amount of "foreign" words (IIRC more than 50%, mostly Old French and Latin), however it's not "all", not by a long stretch.

The 'all' was a bit tongue-in-cheek, as well, what was used, by whom, before the Anglo-Saxons came along ...?

As far as I understand the language has continued to be very adept at adding new words from other cultures/areas ... India/Polynesia etc. Maybe less so nowadays but then abbreviation, slang and techno-speak have taken over?

In the old Collins (Heinzel, Fitter and Parslow) I still fondly recall Waldrapp and Sprosser ...

Andy Adcock · Jun 19, 2020

dantheman said:
Not forgetting that the English language has absorbed and appropriated most (all?) of its words from elsewhere.

+1 for Fan-tailed Warbler! I'd resisted posting on that one so far.

I think there's a balance between things that need to be changed (not many), and unnecessary changes. I still want to use Dabchick sometimes.

You're point?

dantheman · Jun 19, 2020

andyadcock said:
You're point?

Language (and grammar and spelling) change? The English language contains lots of 'foreign' words already?

Andy Adcock · Jun 19, 2020

dantheman said:
Language (and grammar and spelling) change? The English language contains lots of 'foreign' words already?

Many bird names are descrptive to one degree or another whether it be colour, shape, habit or the sound they make, what do you learn of the birds habits or appearance if the name is in a native tongue?

It's just another patronising, liberal act of appeasement in many cases.

Farnboro John · Jun 19, 2020

Mysticete said:
I like a lot of these names, as they are unique and memorable.

Also, I doubt anyone my age or younger would consider Harlequin obscure nowadays, thanks to DC comics.

I like a lot of those names as well. Additionally, something being heritage or obscure shouldn't be a reason for further obscuring it. Perhaps instead we should require some of the ignorant whose ignorance is being touted as the reason for updates to educate themselves instead of us knuckling under while they are knuckling along in ignorance.

John

dantheman · Jun 19, 2020

andyadcock said:
Many bird names are descrptive to one degree or another whether it be colour, shape, habit or the sound they make, what do you learn of the birds habits or appearance if the name is in a native tongue?

It's just another patronising, liberal act of appeasement in many cases.

Just to be clear (there's several topics going on at once here) - what is it that you are talking about here - the renaming of some birds in N America, possibly, the renaming of all Hawaian birds, or something else? If these birds aren't native in England/UK does that not matter as much? (Living in the UK I'm not really entitled to have a huge say in what goes on elsewhere?)

I'd agree that just changing names for PC reasons willy-nilly wrong.

Anyone mentioned Oldsquaw yet?

opisska · Jun 19, 2020

You people call Zitting Cisticola "Fan-tailed Warbler"? There seems to be a completely different New World Warbler of that name, isn't it confusing?

Andy Adcock · Jun 19, 2020

dantheman said:
Just to be clear (there's several topics going on at once here) - what is it that you are talking about here - the renaming of some birds in N America, possibly, the renaming of all Hawaian birds, or something else? If these birds aren't native in England/UK does that not matter as much? (Living in the UK I'm not really entitled to have a huge say in what goes on elsewhere?)

I'd agree that just changing names for PC reasons willy-nilly wrong.

Anyone mentioned Oldsquaw yet?

Isn't that a perfect example of what I suggested? I assume that this is a name which has been translated from a Native, North American language, anyone know the original form?

It would probably fail on grounds of both ageism and sexism these days.

For the record, I'm speaking of all, non English names (with a very few, long established exceptions) on a list which is supposed to be in the English language.

dantheman · Jun 19, 2020

opisska said:
You people call Zitting Cisticola "Fan-tailed Warbler"? There seems to be a completely different New World Warbler of that name, isn't it confusing?

Back when it was always a warbler - it's in Europe. It's true that it's actually a cisticola and there is a bird with the same name. So it got officially 'changed' a decade or two back ... but old habits die hard!

(Zitting as in the sound of the song, but a 'zit' is also an ugly white puss filled spot (aka whitehead), commonly occurring as a blemish on the face of a teenager.)

dantheman · Jun 19, 2020

andyadcock said:
Isn't that a perfect example of what I suggested? I assume that this is a name which has been translated from a Native, North American language, anyone know the original form?

It would probably fail on grounds of both ageism and sexism these days.

For the record, I'm speaking of all, non English names (with a very few, long established exceptions) on a list which is supposed to be in the English language.

Oldsquaw was deemed derogatory, yes, so changed to the relatively boring European 'Long-tailed Duck'. For good reason though apparently - see eg https://ourfinefeatheredfriends.com/tag/oldsquaw/

To be honest, I doubt many on that list are going to change real soon - there may be one or two in time.

Andy Adcock · Jun 19, 2020

opisska said:
You people call Zitting Cisticola "Fan-tailed Warbler"? There seems to be a completely different New World Warbler of that name, isn't it confusing?

Not really, that's what the scientific name is there for is it not and don't forget, not everyone 'birds' around the World. It's a lot more confusing when one bird has three names, even some recent splits, have two names already.

opisska · Jun 19, 2020

dantheman said:
Back when it was always a warbler - it's in Europe. It's true that it's actually a cisticola and there is a bird with the same name. So it got officially 'changed' a decade or two back ... but old habits die hard!

(Zitting as in the sound of the song, but a 'zit' is also an ugly white puss filled spot (aka whitehead), commonly occurring as a blemish on the face of a teenager.)

Not only a teenager, I am 38 this year and there is no sign of slowdown in the zitting

jurek · Jun 19, 2020

dantheman said:
(Zitting as in the sound of the song, but a 'zit' is also an ugly white puss filled spot (aka whitehead), commonly occurring as a blemish on the face of a teenager.)

No English dictionary contains the word 'zitting'. There is only fitting, sitting, hitting, pitting and zing. Zitting could be a loanword from Dutch, where it means 'meeting/sitting'. Does Zitting Cisticola visit meetings a lot? A case to change the word.

https://www.lexico.com/search?utf8=✓&filter=en_dictionary&dictionary=en&query=zitting

Xenospiza said:
While you're at it, please also suggest to change the generic name of all Paridae to Chickadee. A Tufted Titmouse isn't a big-breasted little mammal at all.

I thought ornithologists oppose changing bird names just because the language changed. Tit used to be a generic world for something little.

If you oppose tit, what about Willie Wagtail?

Andy Adcock · Jun 19, 2020

jurek said:
No English dictionary contains the word 'zitting'. There is only fitting, sitting, hitting, pitting and zing. Zitting could be a loanword from Dutch, where it means 'meeting/sitting'. Does Zitting Cisticola visit meetings a lot? A case to change the word.

I doubt that you'll find many of the terms which are used in ornithological parlance or literature to describe bird calls, in a dictionary. Zitting, does as far as I've always known, refer to the sound the bird makes.

Farnboro John · Jun 19, 2020

Well, a zit is a term for a blackhead (are we still allowed to say that?) so is a Zitting Cisticola an aviating mass of pustules? No, of course not. It's simple onomatopoeia. But it's a Fan-tailed Warbler, anyway. :t:

John

MJB · Jun 19, 2020

jurek said:
One could try to get BirdLife to rename Coal Tit into Carbon-neutral Tit.

Except that originally, it was named after the ancient eye cosmetic kohl, a black eye-liner; the word originally comes from Arabic, However, the homonym 'coal' was substituted in written English. It does survive in German as Kohlmeise, but that is a Great Tit... Coal Tit is Tannenmeise...

Kohl was obtained by grinding down the mineral stibnite, which is mostly antimony sulphide. In UK, charcoal was used for the same purpose - well, it was cheaper...!

MJB

Xenospiza · Jun 19, 2020

jurek said:
If you oppose tit, what about Willie Wagtail?

Jurek, my proposal was just as serious as your Carbon-neutral Tit.

Nutcracker · Jun 19, 2020

Xenospiza said:
While you're at it, please also suggest to change the generic name of all Paridae to Chickadee. A Tufted Titmouse isn't a big-breasted little mammal at all.

I suspect that one will go tits-up :t:

Renaming all North American Birds (1 Viewer)

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