Mysticete
Well-known member
Is it list of common names or a list of English language names?
They are not the same thing...
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AOU-NACC Proposals 2019 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Peter Kovalik
- Start date
Is it list of common names or a list of English language names?
They are not the same thing...
I want to answer in a very different direction to where most others have gone. To me it feels like people want to change bird names because the is not dangerous to them, while if they changed something that actually matters, it might upset some of their friends, people they go to church with, etc.
It would be better to start doing things that actually matter:
Figure out who in politics would be willing and able to actually change something and start voting for them
Figure out if your church is filled with anti-diversity people and leave it if that is the case
Work on making hires in your organization welcoming to people of diversity
Etc.
Finally, I see nothing in the description of McCown that should make him a target for renaming, as it is argued in a previous post.
Niels
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Well surely that's self answering, French list, German list, Dutch list etc, etc.........common, English names.
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
It wasn't meant as an argument, "slipperiest slippy slope" or not, it wasn't even a suggestion, it was simply nothing, but a (failed) joke, at worst some sarcasm, or irony. Sorry if it wasn't all that obvious.
Sigh! I'll keep my fingers away from heated threads like this one onwards (apparently my English isn't good enough).
Sad to have wasted anyone's time. Post deleted.
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Kirk Roth
Rarely to be taken seriously
Maybe the word "lecture" means something different in Great Britain, but I don't see how I'm disqualified from sharing a basic fact and a joke based on where I happen to be living at the time.
If there is some personal issue with me, please use a private message instead.
andrew147
Well-known member
No it isn't.
A list of common names for birds used by English-speaking people is not the same as a list of common names of birds exclusively in the English language. Clearly we all use the former as the latter is something that doesn't exist - unless you've personally renamed the avifauna of Hawai'i, amongst others.
And Kirk, lecturing definitely means the same in the UK, you aren't disqualified from sharing facts/jokes, and the anti-American response you received was not representative of British people in general.
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Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Can't be arsed with you mate.
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
You need to be less sensitive, if you don't expect or respect, other opinions (like most liberals it seems), why do you think I have a grudge against you, I don't discriminate, I hate everyone equally.
A hardcore of what seem to be proffesional nomenclaturists and taxonomists here, some of whom, probably never see any live birds, really don't enjoy lay persons, ramming their boat and spilling the champers do they.
I'm just a person who actually uses these lists and names, seems like we can't have an opinion that differs from yours.
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andrew147
Well-known member
...well, of course not.
However, as I don't want the international community of BirdForum to think that you somehow represent English people in general, I'm going to have to be 'arsed' with you.
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Well I can assure you that you don't, maybe in your little bubble.
You illustrate my previous point well, 100% of your posts are on taxonomy and nomenclature, at least the ones I could be bothered to check.
andrew147
Well-known member
Seems like you can be arsed with me there. Do make up your mind!
Anyway, I'm not interested in engaging with you about fripperies because, well, I just can't see us ever becoming friends - and I don't imagine anyone else is interested in reading it. I am, however, compelled to challenge nationalistic claptrap when I come across it, so I guess I'll chat with you soon.
Mysticete
Well-known member
It's not an either/or thing. You can suggest renaming things AND protest/boycott/support liberal candidates.
I am against wholesale discarding of patronyms without good reason. But there are some folks that could be consider to be problematic at best. Take the "Scott" of Scott's Oriole. He was simply the military head of an expedition, not an ornithologist, and further more was heavily involved in the Trail of Tears,a pretty abysmal act of genocide carried out by Native Americans. It's a common name that doesn't carry any real scientific value in the long run, provides no useful information on identification/behavior/range/ecology. So whats the big deal about changing the name?
And as a friend of mine who is also a birder of color said on this...if people aren't willing to consider simple things like this, what hope do we have of getting people to support more major changes in society?
Mysticete
Well-known member
I don't think it's an excuse to not do anything else, but it is something that is easier to implement. Just because something is easy to do doesn't mean it's not worth doing.
Sometimes that is exactly what it means because it detracts from those things that actually means something.
Niels
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Just another way for people like you, to deny an opinion when they can't use racist, homophobe or xenophobe, thank you for showing your colours.
That's it from me on this and no, we won't ever be friends, you could learn a lot from your idols in the US about patriotism and I despise pretention.
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andrew147
Well-known member
But who gets to decide what is meaningful?
That the voices of certain demographics are heard (and considered meaningful), while others are disempowered, is key to this whole discussion.
Incredible, positive social change is happening around us right now and the use of language is a significant part of that. Surely discussing dubious bird nomenclature on this forum is a small but helpful contribution - and it doesn't preclude action in other areas.
Alexjh1
Well-known member
I'm helping with a small part of the back research to this proposal, making a catalogue of who exactly the people are that have birds named after them - it's a big task and we're only beginning to scratch the surface, but even so far the list includes:
Murderers - most often of indiginous people
Racists
Slave owners
Antisemites
Phrenologists
Anti-vaccination advocates
Pro-Colonialism Advocates
Colonialist Soldiers
Colonialist Missionaries
Colonialist Governers
Functionally State-sponsored Human Traffickers
People guilty of what would now be considered Crimes Against Humanity and/or War Crimes
Grave Robbers
A guy who allegedly bought a girl and forced people to eat her so he could watch
Kidnappers
Rapists
A member of a family whose nobility started with a guy who weaponised smallpox against Indiginous people
A guy who supported a local warlord
An associate of Custer
A man who drove one of his servants to suicide
Plagiarists
Now in fairness, we are also finding a few really genuinely cool people in there too, but that doesn't balance out the fact that there are a lot of terrible people - including some big names in the field - who if you looked at their rap sheet, you'd definitely want in prison. Should be be "honoring" these people?
Murderers - most often of indiginous people
Racists
Slave owners
Antisemites
Phrenologists
Anti-vaccination advocates
Pro-Colonialism Advocates
Colonialist Soldiers
Colonialist Missionaries
Colonialist Governers
Functionally State-sponsored Human Traffickers
People guilty of what would now be considered Crimes Against Humanity and/or War Crimes
Grave Robbers
A guy who allegedly bought a girl and forced people to eat her so he could watch
Kidnappers
Rapists
A member of a family whose nobility started with a guy who weaponised smallpox against Indiginous people
A guy who supported a local warlord
An associate of Custer
A man who drove one of his servants to suicide
Plagiarists
Now in fairness, we are also finding a few really genuinely cool people in there too, but that doesn't balance out the fact that there are a lot of terrible people - including some big names in the field - who if you looked at their rap sheet, you'd definitely want in prison. Should be be "honoring" these people?
With such an extensive and far-reaching list of early 21st century views, are you sure you have looked hard enough at these cool people? What were their views on trans-gender people? Did they eat meat? What was their record on animal rights activism?
James Jobling
Well-known member
As it was foretold.......
Never mind the apparently innocent McCown, I am surprised that some fastidious soul has not protested against the use of 'Longspur,' with its obvious connotations of the whip-wielding, jack-booted and spurred overseer! It is absurd that we should be expected to deny our history and cultural heritage to placate a vociferous and readily offended minority. Please do not let the inmates take over the asylum.
Never mind the apparently innocent McCown, I am surprised that some fastidious soul has not protested against the use of 'Longspur,' with its obvious connotations of the whip-wielding, jack-booted and spurred overseer! It is absurd that we should be expected to deny our history and cultural heritage to placate a vociferous and readily offended minority. Please do not let the inmates take over the asylum.
