Lesser White Fronted Goose..... (1 Viewer)

StevieEvans said:

I havnt quite let this one go yet.........
But its amazing what a good resource BF / Emails & internet can be in collecting information.

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Yes, it is nice to be able to discuss particular individuals as they move around the country.

Just to confirm, having now seen the Mark Newsome's pic in today's Birdguides weekly review, this bird is exactly what we thought - i.e. the same individual - shield margin feather pattern and belly patches match pics of the Musselburgh bird perfectly.

I also agree we should not let it go as a possible wild bird. On the basis of its obvious twitchy and nervous behaviour it seemed a very poor contender for an escape. But my main concern was how late it was - I would not describe it as a "summer record" but according to the Operation Lesser Whitefront site I mentioned birds return to their breeding areas - right in the north of Sweden - "by the end of May". BWP says return passage begins in February and arrival in summer quarters is "mainly in May". This is similar to what BWP says for Pinkfoot, which are mainly long gone here, so it looks a bit marginal in that respect. Can anyone else comment on how late this really is (i.e. 29 May in SE Scotland)?

The other uncertainty is how many of the Scandinavian birds are ringed. The picture on the Operation Lesser Whitefront site seems to show single red right-leg colour rings. The CR-Birding website (Lesser Whitefront page) confirms there are Swedish, Norwegian and Finnish leg-ringing projects but does not give many numbers ringed for this species, nor does any seem to match the single red ring! I wonder if anyone can comment on this either?

Regards

Stephen

WelchS said:

I mentioned birds return to their breeding areas - right in the north of Sweden - "by the end of May". This is similar to what BWP says for Pinkfoot, which are mainly long gone here, so it looks a bit marginal in that respect. Can anyone else comment on how late this really is (i.e. 29 May in SE Scotland)?

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Pinkfoots and Lesser White-fronts go in different directions, so what might delay one may not affect the other. Geese are moving late this year - as with many migrants, a cool spring has slowed things down on the northern front. As of a week ago, there were still hundreds of geese on the Baltic coast and as far as latitudes go, we ain't no further north than Lothian.

Stephen,

June is clearly seriously late for any wild goose in England. There are several known escapes in the country, escapes often get into flocks of other species. Behaviour proves nothing, wild birds can behave like escapes and vice-versa. I think it is an escape.

If you are however looking for some evidence to support your cause then a reintroduction bird in the early 1990s ended up touring north west sites all the following summer. But that was a young reintroduction bird, not a wild adult.

Regards,

Stephen.

Stephen Dunstan said:

But that was a young reintroduction bird, not a wild adult.

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Increasingly, there are going to be unrung reintroduction birds, so if you consider them not untickable, then I would be thinking there will never be another tickable Lesser White-fronted Goose in the UK ...or anywhere else for that matter

The point I was making Jos is that a young reintroduction bird would be more likely to overshoot and then get disorientated.

I personally have no problem with species being 'untickable'. I couldn't tick White Stork in Lancashire because the escape risk is overwhelming, but I know the odd wild bird could reach us.

Stephen Dunstan said:

The point I was making Jos is that a young reintroduction bird would be more likely to overshoot and then get disorientated.

I personally have no problem with species being 'untickable'. I couldn't tick White Stork in Lancashire because the escape risk is overwhelming, but I know the odd wild bird could reach us.

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Yes, would agree with the first point and always wonder a bit at the reluctance of UK authorites to accept White Storks almost as matter of course...I'd say more than the odd bird could reach the UK. How come Black Storks don't seem to attract the same 'presumed escape' label? (or am I out of touch, maybe they do these days?)

Stephen Dunstan said:

June is clearly seriously late for any wild goose in England. There are several known escapes in the country, escapes often get into flocks of other species. Behaviour proves nothing, wild birds can behave like escapes and vice-versa. I think it is an escape.

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On balance I also think it is most likely an escape, as I said in my first post. What still interests me is the theoretical discussion of to what extent we can eliminate the possibility of it being a "wild" bird (within which I am including "reintroduction" birds, though these are perhaps technically category C vagrants, i.e. C5, c.f. Ruddy Shelduck debates) - this is not for the purpose of ticking it or getting the record accepted anywhere, purely out of interest having had such brilliant views of this particularly fine individual last wk.

I know there have been endless similar debates about things like Trumpeter Swans eating bread etc., but I would have thought most people would agree that on average "escapes" will be on the tame side. In my own experience escapes are often obvious - first you find an apparently out of place individual, then you find it allows close approach and finally you see the rings on its legs or whatever. Equally, I agree apparently wild birds of certain species may sometimes appear tame, but on average they are not. Things like Greylag and Mallard get rather complicated as there are both extremes out there - e.g. some wild Mallard can be extremely twitchy, which have perhaps been subject to hunting pressures. They may also (possibly?) behave differently in other contexts where they see their congeners doing otherwise, thus confusing matters. But most genuinely wild birds remain typically wary. I agree, behaviour proves nothing but it might give clues.

A further matter of debate is does the very fact that it is in the wrong place (presuming again it is "wild") not likely have some correlation with it being delayed/late - as in the example you have already given Stephen? I think there are plenty of examples of that around amongst obvious wild vagrants, which may equally turn up too early - just individuals which have got a bit confused...

Stephen

Hi Stephen Welsh

Dont know about you, but it still doesnt feel very spring like yet here.... (interesting point about the comparible Baltic latitude)
Every case should obviously be taken on its merits.....

I think the fact that the bird travelled North a further 122 miles within a day or two of arrival at Boldon, is another indication that it was possibly a migrant.

Also, there were no known feral LWFGeese in the northern English Counties in the period prior to this.

The period in question has seen a phenomenal array of birds in the Boldon /Whitburn areas, which have originated in Europe & arrived during / after a period of South Easterly weather conditions.
Over the past 7-9 days these included :-
Pallid Harrier, 3Montagus Harriers, 3+Hen Harriers, 1Marsh Harrier, 3Hobby, Black Kite, 2untagged Red Kite, 2-3Honey Buzzards, Common Rosefinch, male Red Backed Shrike, adult Rose Coloured Starling.

(S.Welsh
Im sure Mark Newsome (Whitburn Birding) would welcome an Email with details of your Musselburgh sighting & photo if you have them.)

SE

StevieEvans said:

(Hopefully it'll be next recorded in Fife, then flying North East past an oil rig....!!

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Stevie & all

Not quite, but nearly - presumably "our" LWF reported from Tower Pool, Loch of Strathbeg 08:40hrs today, now with Pinkfeet (and what are they doing there!?).

So it now is a June record and it has only progressed another 120-150 miles or so in the last week...

Stephen

Wildfowl that move north over relatively short distances and end up at the Loch of Strathbeg are always wild birds.

FACT

Entertaining stuff but if you are preferred to regard a bird hopping from feral to wild goose flocks in June possibly wild at what point would you stop giving it the benefit of the doubt? Mid July? Early August? When it starts going south (even escapes can have the urge to migrate).

The Barrow's Goldeneye Tom presumably refers to I have a much more open mind about. And no I haven't seen it...

Stephen Dunstan said:

Entertaining stuff but if you are preferred to regard a bird hopping from feral to wild goose flocks in June possibly wild at what point would you stop giving it the benefit of the doubt? Mid July? Early August? When it starts going south (even escapes can have the urge to migrate).

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Stephen D

According to ABZ-yahoo there are photos of the Strathbeg bird too so it should be possible to prove if it is the same - I will try and find out.

Yes, I was accepting that the now very late date and slow rate of progress north are clearly unacceptable for anything but an injured bird, which it is clearly not (injured). It is a week since it moved 100-120 miles N in one day, but this latest twist (if same bird) seems to have undermined any thoughts of its wild provenance.

Clearly some escapes do "migrate" quite a distance. Looking at the other records for last winter on Birdguides, there were only: 4 in S. Yorks Sept-Nov, 1 Rutland Dec, 1 Norfolk 16/4, all "presumed escapes". I suppose this current bird could have been the last-mentioned moving N, or perhaps a bird from outside the UK.

Regarding hopping from feral to wild, I suppose at this date there is virtually nothing wild available to join up with (though we had Brent Goose in Lothian 2 days ago, which may well be) and the Pinkfeet must be injured/summering birds.

A variant on Tom's theme might be multi-observed individual birds tracked as they move north throo Britain, seen in one place, then briefly the next day (a Saturday) about 100-120 miles further north, before ending up in Aberdeenshire about a week later - yes, clearly wild!

Stephen W

Wildfowl that move north over relatively short distances and end up at the Loch of Strathbeg are always wild birds.

FACT

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You'll do for me Tommo....... "arm avin' et"
Tick followed Tock; Tick, thank you Tom you are a Bird God.

SE

Hi Stephen,

There probably isn't much else to say on this, I think your last post is a balanced summary. But I did see there is one in Notts today as the same location as a Red Crested Pochard, which I imagine is returning to Continental Europe as we speak!

Regards,

Stephen.

"There probably isn't much else to say on this,"

Remember guys, circa 27% of Eurasian White-fronts (albifrons) have a varying degree of a Yellow Eye-ring.

Regards


Malky

Stephen Dunstan said:

There probably isn't much else to say on this...

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Probably not, but I still found a few more things to say - below!

The bird is still at Strathbeg today and from the pic available on Birdguides does indeed seem to be the same individual - on basis of apparent shape of belly patches. NB - first recorded there Friday so that's 3 days now.

Ian Andrews also pointed me in the direction of a useful link for data on the timing of passage throo Sweden, on this site of the Swedish Ornithological Society/Club300:

http://artportalen.se/rappsyst/swedish_daily.asp

Go to Themes: Frequency diagram on the right menu bar and enter "Lesser White-fronted Goose" (not Lesser Whitefront"). This gives you weekly charts for different geographical areas.

Anyway, this shows quite a strong passage throo central Sweden from mid-April to mid-May, with just one apparent staggler to end of May; from the end of May there are reports from "Mountain region".

On this basis it might therefore be realistic to still find a wandering bird moving up the East coast in the UK up until mid-May at the very latest, but late April would be a more reasonable passage date. Looking again at the full set of BBRC records reveals that there have only ever been two records accepted for May - Slimbridge, ad f, injured, 18 March - 5 May 1951, and a record from Derbyshire for 7 May 1978, which was subsequently struck off. Moreover, apart from the two April records originally quoted by Stevie (1995, 1996) there has only been one other - one remaining at Slimbridge to 13 April 1959 - out of over 100 records. Assuming that other May and April records have been submitted to them, it seems that they have thus far treated them in a very conservative manner!

Well, it has all been very interesting and I for one am certainly better prepared for next time this happens - like, best just ignore it!

Stephen

ultimately the only person you have to convince is yourself Stephen, if you wish to consider it a wild bird...

you'll never know for sure, but the odds are massively against it

best solution: don't keep a list or see LWFG somewhere they occur in large numbers

Tim

ultimately the only person you have to convince is yourself Stephen, if you wish to consider it a wild bird...

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H'lo Tim
Dont think this statement applies to any of the stephens involved in this thread.....
-
Thread has continued for a while now & has been an excellent example of the positive benefits of BF, people from right around the country coming together to further their enjoyment & knowledge.
SE

Tim Allwood said:

you'll never know for sure, but the odds are massively against it

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Odds are also massively against many birds turning up in the UK, but they sure do. Yup, probably the bird is an escape, but lot of info come to light as a result, so it's been a good bird!

Now, as for that Goldeneye on that loch ...isn't it staying about a bit too long?

Tim Allwood said:

you'll never know for sure, but the odds are massively against it

best solution: don't keep a list ...

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Absolutely, and this brings to light an issue which equally applies to accepted records - there are odds there too and though they are generally massively for there will be records in the archive which are spurious, and probably none more so than amongst the wildfowl.

At the risk of going off on a tangent - and sorry I do not tend to do "short" messages - this all relates to the rather artificial means by which we are forced to treat bird recording and even classification. Undoubtedly for serious listers the only thing that matters is accepted records, under whichever recording system one chooses, but a broader view would acknowledge that there is actually an infinite scale, with many obviously kosher records and many clearly dodgy but there are some inbetween (an I'm no longer suggesting that the goose which started this is one such - but there are others). For instance some of the accounts in the "Near Misses" section of Phil Palmer's "First for Britain & Ireland" make very interesting reading, though in the end none have made it, and rightly so. Nevertheless, what a shame that the Passenger Pigeon found exhausted at Tralee, Co Kerry in 1848 was never formally endorsed, for example - there won't be another opportunity! There are also some very interesting accounts for the category D species, and of course one or two of these are included on the UK 400 club list. Don't get me wrong, I fully support the way things are done by BOU/BBRC for the official national record, and there is clearly no other realistic recording system but to accept only reviewed and proven cast-iron certainties, but the birds themselves may not conform to our rules and our interest in them need not be limited by these boundaries either. As far as a Black Brant is concerned for instance, the bird itself does not care two hoots whether or not we choose to classify it as a BBRC rarity, and its true status is probably much the same as it has been for a long time - just we have got better at finding them? Others which do not make the grade can be equally fascinating, even if in the end we conclude they are not sufficient for the official record.

Equally, it is revealing to consider attitudes to subspecies records - just because we choose to lump or split various species/subspecies does not make any difference at all to the bird - it's just a quirk of the way we (currently) choose to classify it. There is currently renewed interest amongst some in previous record(s) of "Chinese Black-backed Wagtail" (Motacilla alba leucopsis) after this spring's Seaham record, but it is probably fair to assume that when these were originally observed they did not inspire that much excitement - subspecies ticks generally don't! But the vagrancy feat was equal in each case...

And yes I do keep lists, lots of them, but I only bother with self-found and it has not increased much recently - no thanks to a certain goose!

Stephen