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What if...... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jan van daalen
- Start date
Hi Chuck,
Long time no speak:t:
Do we need a 7x35? No.
Do we need a Icon 35? No.
Should I want one? Absolutely!
So do yourself a favor and get one.
Believe it or not, but I'll do the same. Amsterdam (Leica store) is just 20 km from my place and after Christmas I'll walk in, get one and walk out.
It's an icon from my youth. This baby can't help her bosses sucksB
Merry Christmas Chuck
Hello,
Errrrr-------If I wanted one I would have to travel 1600 Kilometers.
o
o oSeasons Greetings to All.
Cheers.
jan van daalen
Well-known member
Hi Mike,
You're right, so in this case I'll ask Gijs if he can make time to measure the transmission data and after that I'll take it apart to look inside if I can find any indication of "rice".:eat:
In the first run the Far East Uppendahls had too much sample variation.
Merry Christmas
Jan
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Hello,
Errrrr-------If I wanted one I would have to travel 1600 Kilometers.
o
Seasons Greetings to All.
Cheers.
Hey Boykie, you could always buy via the internet from Leica but personally I agree with you that its always better to view and handle before you buy.
Lee
And you also need to be somewhere where the binoculars make to you if they are sent. We usually take such things for granted. But even in the US, there are many places where you might not get things you ordered.
Hello,
Yes , but to rub salt into the wound , a very good store that stocks Leica's , amongst others , is only 15 minutes away from my home , and they allow you to test in the store to your heart's content before buying :t:.
Oh well-------
Cheers.
Mike F
Well-known member
I think this at least partly explains my initial reaction to Jan’s decision to give Leica the boot. To me dealers, unfortunately, are an irrelevance, so my initial reaction was that it would only hurt him rather than Leica.
I’m also in a location where it is practically impossible to visit a store where there is a good selection of binoculars to try. I’m not sure that even in Helsinki there is a store that carries a good representation of bins from all the major manufacturers, let alone the whole range, (please someone correct me if I’m wrong and I will pay a visit next time I have a gig there!) and even if there is, Helsinki is 500km away! That means that I am stuck with ordering and buying via the internet. I thoroughly dislike ordering online with a view to trying and possibly returning items - I'd MUCH prefer to go to a dealer with a good stock. I'd even be happy to pay a reasonable premium for the pleasure and benefits of doing so, but for me, and I’m sure many others, it’s simply not a practical possibility. The fact that Leica have chosen to sell the new Trinovid only through Leica stores will make zero difference to me. I wish that it wasn't the case, but unfortunately it is.
Just to reiterate, I totally understand Jan's decision not to stock Leica from now on, regrettable though it is.
And........ a very Merry Christmas to everyone. My roast dinner is in the oven! B
Jan,
EVEN MORE THAN ZEISS AND SWARO, Leica are not anymore a manufacturer of optics, they are a very successful luxury/fashion brand. The rules by which they play are exclusivity, style and a form of bait and switch. Look at cameras - do Leica sell something as versatile as Canon or Nikon or Sony? No, they sell strange cumbersome nostalgic rangefinder contrivances at caviar prices, and rebranded japanese products, and license out the brand name to Panasonic.
I think you can spare us the sad song of the honest technical product tradesman caught in a fashion tsunami. Distribution keeps changing, the greengrocer needs to compete with the supermarket, and everyone is getting steamrolled by Amazon. Hard work is no protection against fundamental changes in distribution. You may think the customer wants to buy a binocular, but the smart guys at Leica have messaged the millenial’s girlfriend so she knows the red dot. A visit to the Leica store next to the Rolex store and the Apple store is ever so ok for her, and actually she may get a nice little compact camera with that trendy dot while she’s there, with that custom Hermes strap you can only get at the store and which she’s read about in Vogue. Leica is now a successful fashion/lifestyle brand, and they dont care about you, just as Apple doesnt care about small retail outlets.
If you want to sell optics at retail prices you need to evolve.I think throwing Leica’s overexpensive rebranded OEM lines out of your shop is a posititive measure. A positive sales argument for customers might also be a test certificate for each sample you sell.
Inspecting and testing each sample would be a service to the customer, and to yourself by avoiding returns. It would also distinguish you from the crowd. But then the dirty secret of binocular sales seems to be that many slightly bad fish get sold to customers who do not know better - as the customer doesnt notice, why sell him the brand quality? Ah, I see you too understand the commercial benefits of bait-and-switch
Edmund
EVEN MORE THAN ZEISS AND SWARO, Leica are not anymore a manufacturer of optics, they are a very successful luxury/fashion brand. The rules by which they play are exclusivity, style and a form of bait and switch. Look at cameras - do Leica sell something as versatile as Canon or Nikon or Sony? No, they sell strange cumbersome nostalgic rangefinder contrivances at caviar prices, and rebranded japanese products, and license out the brand name to Panasonic.
I think you can spare us the sad song of the honest technical product tradesman caught in a fashion tsunami. Distribution keeps changing, the greengrocer needs to compete with the supermarket, and everyone is getting steamrolled by Amazon. Hard work is no protection against fundamental changes in distribution. You may think the customer wants to buy a binocular, but the smart guys at Leica have messaged the millenial’s girlfriend so she knows the red dot. A visit to the Leica store next to the Rolex store and the Apple store is ever so ok for her, and actually she may get a nice little compact camera with that trendy dot while she’s there, with that custom Hermes strap you can only get at the store and which she’s read about in Vogue. Leica is now a successful fashion/lifestyle brand, and they dont care about you, just as Apple doesnt care about small retail outlets.
If you want to sell optics at retail prices you need to evolve.I think throwing Leica’s overexpensive rebranded OEM lines out of your shop is a posititive measure. A positive sales argument for customers might also be a test certificate for each sample you sell.
Inspecting and testing each sample would be a service to the customer, and to yourself by avoiding returns. It would also distinguish you from the crowd. But then the dirty secret of binocular sales seems to be that many slightly bad fish get sold to customers who do not know better - as the customer doesnt notice, why sell him the brand quality? Ah, I see you too understand the commercial benefits of bait-and-switch
Edmund
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If you cheated on your wife, would she accept it or not?
That might depend on her expectations of financial independence.
Jan obviously doesn't need Leica and I'm sure all of us here wish him continued success.
John
PS:- I think Leica's use of S-P prisms in the faux Trinovids is just another indication of a basic dishonesty, just like 4 exhausts on a 6-cylinder Porsche - mehr Schein als Sein.
That might depend on her expectations of financial independence.
Jan obviously doesn't need Leica and I'm sure all of us here wish him continued success
.John
PS:- I think Leica's use of S-P prisms in the faux Trinovids is just another indication of a basic dishonesty, just like 4 exhausts on a 6-cylinder Porsche - mehr Schein als Sein.
jan van daalen
Well-known member
Jan,
EVEN MORE THAN ZEISS AND SWARO, Leica are not anymore a manufacturer of optics, they are a very successful luxury/fashion brand. The rules by which they play are exclusivity, style and a form of bait and switch. Look at cameras - do Leica sell something as versatile as Canon or Nikon or Sony? No, they sell strange cumbersome nostalgic rangefinder contrivances at caviar prices, and rebranded japanese products, and license out the brand name to Panasonic.
I think you can spare us the sad song of the honest technical product tradesman caught in a fashion tsunami. Distribution keeps changing, the greengrocer needs to compete with the supermarket, and everyone is getting steamrolled by Amazon. Hard work is no protection against fundamental changes in distribution. You may think the customer wants to buy a binocular, but the smart guys at Leica have messaged the millenial’s girlfriend so she knows the red dot. A visit to the Leica store next to the Rolex store and the Apple store is ever so ok for her, and actually she may get a nice little compact camera with that trendy dot while she’s there, with that custom Hermes strap you can only get at the store and which she’s read about in Vogue. Leica is now a successful fashion/lifestyle brand, and they dont care about you, just as Apple doesnt care about small retail outlets.
If you want to sell optics at retail prices you need to evolve.I think throwing Leica’s overexpensive rebranded OEM lines out of your shop is a posititive measure. A positive sales argument for customers might also be a test certificate for each sample you sell.
Inspecting and testing each sample would be a service to the customer, and to yourself by avoiding returns. It would also distinguish you from the crowd. But then the dirty secret of binocular sales seems to be that many slightly bad fish get sold to customers who do not know better - as the customer doesnt notice, why sell him the brand quality? Ah, I see you too understand the commercial benefits of bait-and-switch
Edmund
Hi Edmund,
That is a very dark message during Christmas day breakfast you are painting here. I do hope I digest it now as well as I did dinner last evening
Is your observation of the optics scene based on professional insight and or personal experience?
I do agree with you that things have changed (read: lack of integrity) but one would imagine that this (read: spreadsheet management) would only occur at companies owned by profit chasing investment companies. Leica is currently owned by Herr Kaufman who bought Leica to keep it in German hands. Indeed, the Chinese were hunting for it. Before that, Leica never believed in digital photography and survived by joining up with Panasonic who had the digital knowledge.
Zeiss is owned by a Stiftung. Good old Ernst Abbe made sure of that and Swarovski is a family owned enterprise, so it should not imply to them.
People make the company and that some dirtbags misbehave does not make the company as a hole fitting your discription.B
Just to bring a small nuance to this whole affairB
I do also agree with you that, in order to survive, the independent dealer must evolve, but this can only be possible with integrity from both suppliers and dealers side.
Without that we'll end up in a rat race.
Jan
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Hi Jan,
It's Christmas - I think first just relax .....
I'm not sure if you are contemplating giving Leica the boot - or have already done so ? :cat: I hope not .....
For sure there needs to be integrity and respect. It's a two way street.
With the scale efficiencies of the online world, competing with virtual stores is fiscally difficult - yet you have to play within the physical strengths of your model while controlling costs as best as possible. Increasingly even bricks and mortar stores need an online presence, digital marketing, SEO, social media etc - every bit as much as virtual stores do.
Manufacturing companies - even high end ones like Leica are typically not good at doing their own high end marketing. They need to collaborate with various high end design houses etc. This may be on a more permanent or project by project basis.
I do not think this precludes a traditional dealer network - especially if they are heavily embedded in the service process etc. I could see some dealerships with appropriate business models and infrastructure (such as yours) becoming a higher tier 'select' dealer able to participate in, and host field days, model launches etc.
I would be fronting up to the Leica Senior Executive and Owners and giving them a straight out - Please Explain ??
Chosun :gh:
It's Christmas - I think first just relax .....
I'm not sure if you are contemplating giving Leica the boot - or have already done so ? :cat: I hope not .....
For sure there needs to be integrity and respect. It's a two way street.
With the scale efficiencies of the online world, competing with virtual stores is fiscally difficult - yet you have to play within the physical strengths of your model while controlling costs as best as possible. Increasingly even bricks and mortar stores need an online presence, digital marketing, SEO, social media etc - every bit as much as virtual stores do.
Manufacturing companies - even high end ones like Leica are typically not good at doing their own high end marketing. They need to collaborate with various high end design houses etc. This may be on a more permanent or project by project basis.
I do not think this precludes a traditional dealer network - especially if they are heavily embedded in the service process etc. I could see some dealerships with appropriate business models and infrastructure (such as yours) becoming a higher tier 'select' dealer able to participate in, and host field days, model launches etc.
I would be fronting up to the Leica Senior Executive and Owners and giving them a straight out - Please Explain ??
Chosun :gh:
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jan van daalen
Well-known member
Hi :gh::gh:
Yes, it is Christmas and yes, the decision is final and made very well overthought and, since it's work, in concensus.
Regarding your last remark: If every dealer would do like we did, the issue would be out of the woods tomorrow:t:
Nice to talk to you again.
Jan
MandoBear
Well-known member
I think Edmund (post #29) hit the nail squarely on the head. For many years I've had an interest in horology - specifically in mechanical wristwatches, and this has led me into contact with companies such as Rolex, Omega, IWC, etc. Increasingly, there is a trend with such manufacturers to set up thier own "boutiques" where they can exercise total control over the sales process and the whole "buying experience" - for that is what many of their customers are buying; an experience. In one sense, the wristwatch becomes almost secondary - a vehicle for that experience. Whilst there will be buyers who care about what kind of escapement a watch employs, the material of the balance spring, the majority have less awareness or understanding of this - they just want to buy a watch which has high percieved value and quality - and crucially, a significant measure of exclusivity and brand status. A watch is not just for telling the time - oh no...
You can see the same processes at work in Leica marketing (and here I'd have to resectfully disagree with Chosun - in that I think Leica are very good at their marketing), but they're not going after the likes of you and me with their sales force. They're aiming at, for want of a better term, status buyers. If they pick up binocular afficionados on the way, then well and good, but we aren't who they are aiming at.
As for your decision to drop Leica, Jan, I think you have taken a very courageous and principled decision. Trade requires trust on both sides, and it seems to me that Leica have broken that trust in favour of their own interests. There are plenty of other exceptional binoculars out there, and your customers will still enjoy an excellent choice from companies you still have belief in.
You can see the same processes at work in Leica marketing (and here I'd have to resectfully disagree with Chosun - in that I think Leica are very good at their marketing), but they're not going after the likes of you and me with their sales force. They're aiming at, for want of a better term, status buyers. If they pick up binocular afficionados on the way, then well and good, but we aren't who they are aiming at.
As for your decision to drop Leica, Jan, I think you have taken a very courageous and principled decision. Trade requires trust on both sides, and it seems to me that Leica have broken that trust in favour of their own interests. There are plenty of other exceptional binoculars out there, and your customers will still enjoy an excellent choice from companies you still have belief in.
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jan van daalen
Well-known member
Hi Big Bear,
I just don't agree with the customer profile. I do not think that even 0.01% of all the Leica optics users on this Forum will say "He, that me they're talking about".
This is the Binocular section of a Birding Forum. I don't think these people read Vogue, enter the shops mentioned etc.
I deal with Leica customers for more than 20 years now and their profile aint the one as painted.
Leica is more than Sport Optics, that's true but we deal with Sport Optics here and their customer profile is quite different from the camera division. Two completely different worlds AND customers.
Jan
Jan,
The rep told you “the higher the price we ask for it the harder the customer runs”. Leica is not doing spreadsheet management, they are doing brand management. They hold luxurious parties and events, open their own boutiques, serve expensive wine in their shops and I have seen them drop $5K camera bodies because they don’t even have a table to show their products. Also, they compete with their dealers.
You need to understand how *they* make their money, so you can make yours. It is clear from your post that you don’t any more understand what Leica does, because they changed. I have no problem with your refusal to carry their product, it is a commercially viable decision, but I still feel you have come to this decision out of a frustration born from a lack of comprehension rather than from an understanding of what is happening.
You obviously don’t understand this world; go to the center of Amsterdam, and take the manager of the Vuitton store out for lunch, give her a binocular for her partner or child, and as you are not a competitor maybe she will be frank and she will introduce you to the world of luxury marketing and branding, and explain what the future holds for you when suppliers follow this path. You need a friend or guide to a very different retail world which is now encroaching on your own zone of activity.
Edmund
The rep told you “the higher the price we ask for it the harder the customer runs”. Leica is not doing spreadsheet management, they are doing brand management. They hold luxurious parties and events, open their own boutiques, serve expensive wine in their shops and I have seen them drop $5K camera bodies because they don’t even have a table to show their products. Also, they compete with their dealers.
You need to understand how *they* make their money, so you can make yours. It is clear from your post that you don’t any more understand what Leica does, because they changed. I have no problem with your refusal to carry their product, it is a commercially viable decision, but I still feel you have come to this decision out of a frustration born from a lack of comprehension rather than from an understanding of what is happening.
You obviously don’t understand this world; go to the center of Amsterdam, and take the manager of the Vuitton store out for lunch, give her a binocular for her partner or child, and as you are not a competitor maybe she will be frank and she will introduce you to the world of luxury marketing and branding, and explain what the future holds for you when suppliers follow this path. You need a friend or guide to a very different retail world which is now encroaching on your own zone of activity.
Edmund
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jan van daalen
Well-known member
Hi Edmund,
It's clear Paris is no Amsterdam. A city I served for more than 2 decades. If I would do what you suggest my better half, whose name only can be mentioned with the biggest respect, would dig an ax in my back so deep......
Sorry mate. Mission impossible
Jan
MandoBear
Well-known member
Hi Jan,
I think that you have captured exactly my point. The Leica users on this forum (and probably on almost any binocular, birdwatching, or hunting forum) are not the kind of customers who Leica are aiming at - certainly not for the Retrovid - and increasingly not for much of their range. Nor, I suspect, are the customers who you deal with regularly, the kind of customers Leica are aiming at with their boutiques. I'm guessing that most of your customers go into your shop because they appreciate being able to compare and try out a range of different makes and types of binoculars (at whatever price-level they can afford) and see which one best meets their needs - and if they have questions, they can ask you or one of your colleagues for advice or recommendations. It may be that some have their heart set on a particular brand or model before they walk through the door, but many may still try out other binoculars - even if only to confirm their initial choices.
This is not how Leica's (or any other luxury brand's) boutique marketing model works. When a customer walks into a Leica (or Rolex, Omega... etc.) boutique, they are there because at some level in their mind, they already want to buy that brand - and that choice may have little to do with the inherent suitability or quality of that product for their intended practical use; it's as much or more to do with perceptions of the values of that brand. Such values may include: luxury, exclusivity, percieved expensiveness, quality, what it says about them as a discerning, wealthy customer, what it may say about them as a giver of a gift to their nearest and dearest, etc...
You are quite right - by and large, we are not those kind of customers. We spend ages agonizing over a few metres of field of view, a few nits more sharpness at the edge of that field, a couple of percent more light transmission, whether the dioptre compensation is on the central axis or on the eyepiece... We are overwhelmingly in the minority - perhaps not in the wider, birding and sport optics market - but most certainly in the market that Leica are aiming for with their boutiques.
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