hannu
Well-known member
See follow link : :eat:
http://www.birdlife.fi/lintuharrastus/rk-identification/redstart.html
Hannu :eek!:
http://www.birdlife.fi/lintuharrastus/rk-identification/redstart.html
Hannu :eek!:
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Probable hybrid Black Redstart X Common Redstart, ochruros X phoenicurus (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter hannu
- Start date
Jane Turner
Well-known member
I'm assuming that wing formula ruled out some of the more Redstart-like Eastern races of Black-Redstart.... is it phoenicuroides. It certainly looks more like Redstart in build.
RockyRacoon
Well-known member
Is it me or is that similar to the Eastern race of phoenicuroides?
luke
A Welsh birder in Dorset!
http://www.tarsiger.com/index.php?p...ack+Redstart%2C+Phoenicurus+ochruros&lang=eng
try this link, some pics on it definatly confirm that it is an eastern black redstart pics taken in finland i think
cheers
luke
try this link, some pics on it definatly confirm that it is an eastern black redstart pics taken in finland i think
cheers
luke
Andrew Rowlands
Well-known member
From the page linked to :-
*The bird closely resembles the phoenicuroides subspecies of Black Redstart but because of pale mantle colour, distinct white wing-patch and long wing, is most likely a hybrid between Black Redstart and Common Redstart. Perhaps the song, quite extensive pale patch on belly and vent also point in that direction. The emarginations and wing-formula are much like Black Redstart but P8 is longer than found in most of the those (1). The bird cannot be samamisicus Common Redstart because of wing-formula, extensive black throat-patch, indistinctiviness of the white forehead patch and song. What was most likely the same bird was present at the same place in September 2000.*
Certainly sounds much more Black than Common Redstart to me.
Andy.
*The bird closely resembles the phoenicuroides subspecies of Black Redstart but because of pale mantle colour, distinct white wing-patch and long wing, is most likely a hybrid between Black Redstart and Common Redstart. Perhaps the song, quite extensive pale patch on belly and vent also point in that direction. The emarginations and wing-formula are much like Black Redstart but P8 is longer than found in most of the those (1). The bird cannot be samamisicus Common Redstart because of wing-formula, extensive black throat-patch, indistinctiviness of the white forehead patch and song. What was most likely the same bird was present at the same place in September 2000.*
Certainly sounds much more Black than Common Redstart to me.
Andy.
Edward woodwood
Member
looks a ringer for semirufus Black Red
this very similar to phoenicuroides too!
PS, try Madge and Beaman or Jonsson for semirufus - the Collins guide bird is strange indeed...!
Tim
this very similar to phoenicuroides too!
PS, try Madge and Beaman or Jonsson for semirufus - the Collins guide bird is strange indeed...!
Tim
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hannu
Well-known member
ggoldie51 said:
The bird in your photo is Phoenicurus OCHRUROS ssp. phoenicuroides
This kind of birds are quite common wintering bird species e.g. in United Arab Emirates and Oman. This bird breeds in Central Asia and resemble quite much those hybrids.
Hannu :eek!:
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Edward woodwood
Member
so does the reduced white in the wing of the orig. bird indicate semirufus?
hannu
Well-known member
Tim Allwood said:
Svensson says that P.o.semirufus's back (Syria, Lebanon, Israel) is VERY black and there is not any white 'panel' in the wing. Small size , wing 76-81 (n 7)
Adult male reminds ssp. rufiventris.
> so this original bird's wing was 89 mm, and it has also white panel in the wing, so it can not be semirufus !
Hannu :eek!:
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Dear all,
I am most grateful for your information.
I have seen semirufus listed in at least several countries to the east of its breeding range, even in India! This would require an eastward migration, and I don't think that this is what happens. Probably the birds involved were phoenicuroides or other eastern subspecies. Does anyone have a picture of some eastern subspecies. It would be very useful for us.
Thank you again for your kind help. Best wishes,
George.
I am most grateful for your information.
I have seen semirufus listed in at least several countries to the east of its breeding range, even in India! This would require an eastward migration, and I don't think that this is what happens. Probably the birds involved were phoenicuroides or other eastern subspecies. Does anyone have a picture of some eastern subspecies. It would be very useful for us.
Thank you again for your kind help. Best wishes,
George.
Edward woodwood
Member
hannu said:
see illustrations in Jonsson, Madge and Beaman etc.... all show a greyish bird with a slight wing panel for semirufus
I don't know who's right but Lars Jonsson is hardy ever wrong...
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
A quick google search gave this as a pic of semirufus:
http://www.worldbirder.com/photonew/xpages/photo.asp?PhotoID=1330
difficult to judge from this photo how dark upperparts are , but there doesn´t seem to be a real white wingpanel...
http://www.worldbirder.com/photonew/xpages/photo.asp?PhotoID=1330
difficult to judge from this photo how dark upperparts are , but there doesn´t seem to be a real white wingpanel...
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hannu
Well-known member
ggoldie51 said:
Svensson says also that P.o. ssp phoenicuroides wing is whole dark without white panel, but my friend says that it has whitish panel quite often in fresh plumage. The panel is often weaker than our P.ochruros.
See e.g. (P.o.phoenicuroides)
http://www.tarsiger.com/index.php?pic_id=komi1109266306&lang=fin
Hannu :eek!:
hannu
Well-known member
Tim Allwood said:
Do you have English version from Fågelguiden- Europas och Medelhavsområdets fåglar i fält (Svensson, Zetterström, Killian Mullarney, Peter J. Grant), year 1999?
There is a good picture from semirufus. That bird has same dark black back as the breast. Maybe in brevious photo link from semirufus is not fresh plumage bird. And there is "non-existent panel" . I think that Svensson is GURU in these cases !
Hannu :eek!:
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Edward woodwood
Member
maybe all the other guides are wrong...
Collins is the only pic i've seen with a really black back
Tim
Collins is the only pic i've seen with a really black back
Tim
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
For Comparison, this is a link to another probable hybrid
http://users.skynet.be/ch-web/photos/pho_x001.htm
EDIT: also for those interested in behavioural things, here is an abstract on differences in perching behaviour
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1111/j.0908-8857.2004.03128.x
http://users.skynet.be/ch-web/photos/pho_x001.htm
EDIT: also for those interested in behavioural things, here is an abstract on differences in perching behaviour
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1111/j.0908-8857.2004.03128.x
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