Nikon FF (and DX) Mirrorless rumours/ announcements (5 Viewers)

Chosun Juan · Oct 5, 2018

Snappercool said:
I can't see how these mirrorless offerings are going to help bird Photography that much.
IBIS is not as effective on the long lenses. The 500PF is more significant for us.

Once the resolutions on these FF Mirrorless sensors hit about 63-80MP then we have effectively matched/exceeded the best resolutions for current DX anyway .... (the Samsung 28MP NX-1, and the rumoured 32MP Canon DX for 2019). We are also equivalent to a 20MP MFT. Note that a 20MP 1" Sensor is equivalent to just under 150MP FF.

Provided they can continuously AF and meter at least at 10fps (15fps better) then they will make good bird photography tools. I can see DX Mirrorless being a bit of a conundrum going forward.

Further refined IBIS systems may see the elimination of IS/VR need in lenses - allowing them to be made smaller, lighter, and cheaper. There is a lot to look forward to with Mirrorless.

As Dave said the Z7 crops (20.3MP) to virtually current DX's now - it's just that it tops out at about half the D500's fps in AF-C/AE.

I hope that Nikon just does a D500S DSLR next, and dips it's toe in the Mirrorless DX waters with something like an entry level Z3 - they've got quite a road to travel to even sort the mount out for that one yet!

I think Canon is sorted for now - there will be 2 DX mounts - the existing M, and down the track a high performance Mirrorless 7D would just use the R mount. Will Nikon do something similar ... ? :cat:

Chosun :gh:

Chosun Juan · Oct 5, 2018

Banding in the Z7 means it can't quite match the D850's Dynamic Range

It seems that this is showing up with EV pushes of +4 or more in the shadows with current processing software. This will definitely need to be sorted for any higher resolution Z8 ......
https://m.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review/7

Chosun :gh:

Chosun Juan · Oct 7, 2018

Nikon Z7 Mirrorless Camera teardown

Well folks, here's what makes her tick !

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/10/06/nikon-z7-mirrorless-camera-teardown.aspx/

Other interviews I have seen with Nikon managers suggest that more powerful processing and faster AF operation, over sampled video, and higher bit rate etc, is constrained by processor and heat dissipation at the moment. Along with the number of card slots, battery size and life, if this is to change, then a larger body for factor will be required.
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/10/05/lensvid-interview-with-nikon-at-photokina-nikon-z-and-more.aspx/

Chosun :gh:

Chosun Juan · Oct 17, 2018

Nikon Z7 tracking lags behind the D850, Sony a7 III

It seems that Nikon hasn't quite lived up to it's own self defined performance parameters.

I have to say, I find this AF 'miss' a little puzzling, I mean it's not rocket science! Lol - well actually it is

the physics of a moving object should be easy enough to track in real time - it's not like you're trying to predict the random appearance of a UFO or something popping in and out of 3D reality from some higher dimension.

The maximum speeds, accelerations, and range of directional changes is well within calculation for most subjects - the flight of swifts or peregrines should be able to be predicted. Probably things like hummingbirds and dragonflies would be harder still. I really don't get how focusing on an unintended background can be such a common occurrence ....

https://m.dpreview.com/reviews/niko...tm_medium=marquee&utm_campaign=traffic_source

Overall AF conclusion

"The Nikon Z7 has vast AF coverage, is precise in its focus on static subjects and accurate in its focus on moving subjects (using a single point), but its AF tracking of moving subjects is not as reliable as the 3D-Tracking mode found in Nikon DSLRs.

For some time, we've considered Nikon DSLR autofocus the best in the business both in terms of tracking operability and reliability. But the Z7, while capable, falls short of meeting this high standard, despite its pro-level price. It also falls far short of the bar set by class-leading mirrorless autofocus, likeSony's Lock-on AF."

Chosun :gh:

HermitIbis · Oct 17, 2018

So which of the two mirrorless systems, N1 or Z, is worse at tracking? Pressing OK on my V2 to start or stop tracking has rarely worked with small birds.

After this harsh review, and marcsantacurz' report in the other thread I'll rather get another V2 body. Mirrorless birding at its best, and you can even turn the "shutter noise" on, if you join a group of DSLR birders.

Chosun Juan · Oct 17, 2018

Lol

In one of the interviews posted in this thread, one of the Nikon Managers claimed that the '1' series isn't really dead since the lessons learned during its inception and development live on in the 'Z' series.

I really thought Nikon would move the AF game on with the Z, but it looks like for now it's still in the realms of unrealised potential .....

Chosun :gh:

Snappercool · Oct 18, 2018

opticoholic said:
Y

However I’m glad Nikon is finally putting out a serious mirrorless system because mirrorless cameras in general have a few advantages over DSLR’s that can help with bird photography. The mirrorless features I most appreciate are (a) a totally silent and vibrationless shutter and (b) a really good EVF that allows among other things the ability to zoom in on your subject and dial in the focus super precisely with focus peaking.

Dave

Silent shutter would be useful to me. Often sat in the hide and the only one with a DSLR. I start to shoot and the D500 shutter sounds pretty loud.

HermitIbis · Oct 18, 2018

Snappercool said:
Silent shutter would be useful to me. Often sat in the hide and the only one with a DSLR. I start to shoot and the D500 shutter sounds pretty loud.

While it can be an issue, shutter noise also has advantages. After two years of silence now I sometimes turn on the noise. It helps me to cure my mistake to press the shutter too early in a BIF situation, to be aware of buffer limitations and shoot more "consciously", care more about framing.

Funny side-observation: birds find the artificial shutter noise of my V2 more annoying than the V3's. There IS technological progress in Nikon's cameras!

Chosun Juan · Oct 25, 2018

DPReview critique of, and suggestions for - AF system

DPReview is refining it's review of the Z7 and offers this further critique of, and suggestions for the AF:
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/2670904610/five-ways-nikon-could-improve-the-z7

It is clear that Nikon has missed it's own mark with regard to AF.

My view is that with the potential ability to 'virtually' use the whole sensor 'area' as an RGB sensor, and more AF points, they really should be able to write algorithms to offer better than DSLR performance. They may need to look at including two Expeed 6 (or even 7) processors - photography is becoming more and more about data processing.

Also interesting that they mention: "Unexpectedly, the native Z lenses we've tried appear to focus more slowly and less predictably than adapted F-mount lenses too (though to their credit they are silent to focus in video)." I'm not sure which Z lenses this refers to - I guess we'll have to wait until the full review is released.

Chosun :gh:

opticoholic · Oct 27, 2018

I liked this review:

http://blog.michaelclarkphoto.com/?...RKlXpdpXzJaZ5wwfjGo6n4Jpf5uR8afq-pYkWdz-gjVNo

In general I like a lot of things about the Z7 for general photography apart from birds. I remain most interested in how good the native "S" lenses will be, and I'm kind of witholding judgement on the system overall until I see more reports on both the 35mm and 50mm S lenses. So far the first reviews of the 24-70mm zoom and the 35 have not been entirely glowing, but generally I'm reading positive things.

Dave

Chosun Juan · Nov 25, 2018

DPReview full Z7 review:
https://m.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7

They've missed (badly imho) on AF tracking, but it seems from a few Exec interviews all over the Nikonosphere that this is a feature where they are still looking to DSLR's to lead the way.

There has to ultimately be more headroom in the mirrorless system, but the banding issues need to be resolved (as does Sony's star eater drawback).

The other miss against Nikon's stated aims is that the EVF merely matches the class hatch (3.69M dots) rather than leads, as they said it would. Leica has their 4.4M dot jobbie, but even a HD standard one would require 5.25M dots at least at 120Hz refresh rate but preferably 200Hz ...... quite the way to go then Nikon !

Chosun :gh:

Chosun Juan · Nov 25, 2018

Free Z7 !!

Translated interview from a French Nikon Manager.
https://translate.googleusercontent...700201&usg=ALkJrhiLOZqMYQz-JoGOPpMeDeCOBL7tJg

You get a free! Z7 with the purchase of every 6mm fisheye lens (a mere 170,000 Euro - gulp).

Also, he let's slip that there will be no long telephoto lenses for the Z mount ..... probably until the death of the DSLR.

Forget the f0.95 Noct, apparently the optical limit of the mount is f0.65 ! ...... great for photographing the eyelashes of emus or the edge of razor blades !! :eek!:

Chosun :gh:

Hermann · Nov 25, 2018

Chosun Juan said:
DPReview full Z7 review:
https://m.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7

They've missed (badly imho) on AF tracking, but it seems from a few Exec interviews all over the Nikonosphere that this is a feature where they are still looking to DSLR's to lead the way.

If you look at more reviews on the net you'll find there are quite a few people who report having no real problems with AF tracking eventhough the D5 and the D500 are still better. Check out Brad Hill's blog for instance: http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html

Some of these people report there's quite steep learning curve with the AF of the Z6 and the Z7. Maybe the guys at DPReview didn't spend enough time with the Z7 before publishing their review ...

Hermann

Chosun Juan · Nov 26, 2018

Hermann said:
If you look at more reviews on the net you'll find there are quite a few people who report having no real problems with AF tracking eventhough the D5 and the D500 are still better. Check out Brad Hill's blog for instance: http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html

Some of these people report there's quite steep learning curve with the AF of the Z6 and the Z7. Maybe the guys at DPReview didn't spend enough time with the Z7 before publishing their review ...

Hermann

Thanks Hermann - I will check that out :t:

Steep learning curve or not, I think at this stage the Mirrorless is just not as capable as the top dawg DSLR's at this juncture.

In theory, I think the mirrorless should blitz the AF (if they give it the proper algorithms and processing power and bus lanes to cope) - they clearly haven't given the Z6/7 the full herbs at this stage. Part of this is processing power, but part of it (or so the cynic in me says) is that darned market segmentation, placement (as evidenced by the lens offerings) and protectionism of their D5, D500, and D850 flagships.

They seem to have separated the performance parameters of the DSLR's and Mirrorless. Thus is further borne out by the slip in my post following the one you quoted, which revealed no plans to make supertelephotos as a native Z mount (which doesn't bode well for any native APS-C Z creation any time either, this side of the second coming !).

They have rather diverged the streams instead of converging them. By the 4th generation Mirrorless we might see them start to turn the wick up a bit (unless Sony force their hand sooner with significantly better product, and to a lesser extent, Panasonic too

That being the case, I wish they would hurry up and get me a D500S and a 600 f5.6 PF for Christmas ! .......

lol

Chosun :gh:

Hermann · Nov 26, 2018

Chosun Juan said:
That being the case, I wish they would hurry up and get me a D500S and a 600 f5.6 PF for Christmas ! ....... lol

I'd take a Nikon DX mirrorless with a 20 megapixel sensor and a large enough buffer anytime ... :t: I'm just too much into DX lenses and I want the additional reach (and smaller size) compared to FX bodies, so I don't really want an FX body. I do want a mirrorless Nikon though, simply because of the advantages mirrorless offers offers over DSLRs - IBIS, no need to match the lenses to the bodies, a quiet shutter and so on. In fact, I may get a Z6 despite my preferences for DX bodies once the dust settles and the price come down a bit to a more realistic level. And maybe Nikon will out out a firmware update at some stage. That may help with the AF to some extent.

Combine such a camera with the 300 PF and the 500 PF and you're good to go. Heck, even a combination of the AF-P 70-300 FX (yes, the AF-P 70-300 FX is THAT good) with the 500 PF +1.4 TC would cover most of my needs.

Hermann

Chosun Juan · Nov 26, 2018

Hermann said:
I'd take a Nikon DX mirrorless with a 20 megapixel sensor and a large enough buffer anytime ... :t: I'm just too much into DX lenses and I want the additional reach (and smaller size) compared to FX bodies, so I don't really want an FX body. I do want a mirrorless Nikon though, simply because of the advantages mirrorless offers offers over DSLRs - IBIS, no need to match the lenses to the bodies, a quiet shutter and so on. In fact, I may get a Z6 despite my preferences for DX bodies once the dust settles and the price come down a bit to a more realistic level. And maybe Nikon will out out a firmware update at some stage. That may help with the AF to some extent.

Combine such a camera with the 300 PF and the 500 PF and you're good to go. Heck, even a combination of the AF-P 70-300 FX (yes, the AF-P 70-300 FX is THAT good) with the 500 PF +1.4 TC would cover most of my needs.

Hermann

Well, I think there's good news :eat: and bad news ! :eek!: :news:

Yes, I agree, I think the future is bright for mirrorless with the IBIS, etc (great tick to Nikon for including this on the initial generation), and of course the prospect of the Holy Grail of the global shutter one day.

I had a look at a Z7 in store, and the good news is that it's a pretty small body (if you want such a thing) and grip (which I didn't - much preferring the D500/D850 size grip). The Z6 has apparently been getting very good video scores.

I'm sure Nikon will issue some sort of AF firmware update, but I don't think it will do a great deal to close the gap to the D5/D500.

The bad news is that it doesn't look like the APS-C version of the mirrorless Z will be here any time soon ..... I certainly wouldn't hold my breath waiting on that one! and you'd be using FTZ adapted lenses for a loooooooong time ....... particularly at the long end.

I think the rig you suggested of the Z6 + the various PF lenses etc sounds like a good way to go at the moment ...... just realize you'll be cropping if you need the APS-C reach.

There have been snippets here and there of APS-C engineering test mules undergoing various tests, but it sounded very far from an integrated unit in the final stages - more like preliminary engineering of various component systems - so a long way off. I'm pretty certain it will be Z mount, but it's almost like Canon has the better options there with likely two APS-C mounts (M, & R). My guess is not before 2020 at earliest ......

Chosun :gh:

Hermann · Nov 28, 2018

Chosun Juan said:
I had a look at a Z7 in store, and the good news is that it's a pretty small body (if you want such a thing) and grip (which I didn't - much preferring the D500/D850 size grip). The Z6 has apparently been getting very good video scores.

The size is ok for me, I've got relatively small hands (for a man). The weight is another matter. For travelling and for long hikes I'd much prefer a lighter body, and FX doesn't do much for me as I really need the crop factor of a DX body. So a decent DX body would be very much welcome. The IBIS would allow me to use my old Nikkors like the 4.6/400 IF-ED more easily, and manual focusing is a lot easier with focus peaking and the various image magnification options.

Chosun Juan said:
The bad news is that it doesn't look like the APS-C version of the mirrorless Z will be here any time soon ..... I certainly wouldn't hold my breath waiting on that one! and you'd be using FTZ adapted lenses for a loooooooong time ....... particularly at the long end.

I know. I don't think there'll be a DX body until 2020 or so, and maybe not at all. Although Nikon did manage to surprise people quite a few times over the past few years, like when they introduced the D500.

Chosun Juan said:
I think the rig you suggested of the Z6 + the various PF lenses etc sounds like a good way to go at the moment ...... just realize you'll be cropping if you need the APS-C reach.

Yep. However I may wait a bit until Nikon have sorted out any remaining kinks. I've also got some second thoughts about the Z 6. Sure, it seems like a very nice body with excellent dynamic range, however, I really want the additional reach of a DX body. And I can do without the weight penalty of an FX body. I'll retire in about 2 years from now, and then I'll have a heck of a lot more time to do some photography. I reckon my present setup will have to do until then.

BTW, my present walkabout setup is a consumer bodies (D5300) with one of the AF-P 70-300 zooms, either the DX or the FX. Both are very, very good, not quite as good as the 4/300 PF, but not that much worse. And they're much more flexible. The AF is very fast, faster than many other Nikkors, for instance the 200-500. Not really enough focal length, but the 24 MP bodies allow for some serious cropping and work well up to about 1600-3200 ISO.

When I want to do some more serious stuff I still use an old D300. Mind you, I've been thinking about getting one of the recent 100-400 mm zooms, either the Tamron (more likely) or the Sigma. Carrying my old 4/500 is a bit of a bore, and the 5,6/500 is still like some sort of mythical beast over here. Not many people got one yet, so I didn't have a chance to try it out in the field.

Hermann

Chosun Juan · Nov 29, 2018

Yep, it's all rather frustrating! Especially for the birders.

I was a bit surprised by the DX delay, but positively (but in a bad way!

shocked by the revelation that there are no plans to make long lenses natively in Z mount. I had hoped that with the PF range being developed at around the same time as the Mirrorless Z, that they would have made 2 versions - one F mount (as they did), and another Z mount (even if they simply just made another lens body with what would amount to a built in extension tube) - but they didn't even go that far! The wheels really are turning v - e - r - y slowly in the industry.

For Nikon, that huge diameter Z mount (best suited to fast wideangles and portrait lengths), and no native long lenses makes for a bit of an illogical DX mix - perhaps hence the delay.

It will be interesting to see if Nikon makes a D500S, or a Z500? both?!? and when! Same thing for Canon - will they make a 7DMkIII or an R mirrorless version?

I can't help but think that Canon may even have the advantage of 2 APS-C Mirrorless mounts - the EOS-M for the compact generalist travel type stuff, and an R APS-C for the Pro DX stuff (provided they come up with some native long lenses). A 600 f4 DO on an R7 would be tantalizing without stepping on any DSLR supertelephoto toes, but at the moment this rig probably only exists nowhere but my mind !

There doesn't seem to be any competitive push from other manufacturers either - maybe by 2020 after the Olympics and the FF competition by Panasonic, we might just be starting to hear whispers of DX rumours ....... :-C

Hope you get your hands on a PF 500 f5.6 soon. :t:

I'm finding the silence on the PF 600 f5.6 very depressing ! :-C

Chosun :gh:

Hermann · Nov 29, 2018

Chosun Juan said:
I'm finding the silence on the PF 600 f5.6 very depressing ! :-C

Actually, the one guy I know who's already got the PF 5.6/500 says he wouldn't get a PF 5.6/600 no matter what. His setup is D500+PF 5.6/500+1.4 TC. That's 1050mm in FX terms, and he reckons that's good enough. A 5.6/600 would be quite a bit larger and heavier and would in his opinion defeat the wole purpose of the PF lenses, namely to provide a lot of reach in a small, lightweight package.

Hermann

Chosun Juan · Nov 29, 2018

Hermann said:
Actually, the one guy I know who's already got the PF 5.6/500 says he wouldn't get a PF 5.6/600 no matter what. His setup is D500+PF 5.6/500+1.4 TC. That's 1050mm in FX terms, and he reckons that's good enough. A 5.6/600 would be quite a bit larger and heavier and would in his opinion defeat the wole purpose of the PF lenses, namely to provide a lot of reach in a small, lightweight package.

Hermann

HI Hermann,

The D500 is a fair lump of camera, so I'd be ok with the small increase in weight and length of the 600 over the 500PF. It's buried in that PF patent thread somewhere, but I think the 600/5.6 PF was about a foot long, and I crunched some numbers on the back of an envelope to give about ~1.7 - 1.8kg (so just under 4lbs). For sure a step up over the 500 PF, but on a D500, just a bit less than what I carry on a sling now (D7200 + Tammy G2 150-600/f6.3).

I would really like to eliminate the TC on the 500 option (saving pretty much the extra length and weight anyway), and increase the aperture to f5.6, and maximize the AF speed. If it is razor sharp wide open then happy days. I'd really miss the ability to zoom back out on occasion (useful for reaccquiring a fast moving bird, or one that decides to check out your hairstyle) over my current rig, but the step up in IQ should ease the loss of versatility as I spend 90% of the time at full zoom anyway. I will just have to get better at tracking! I usually shoot in the 1.3x crop mode so that would give me about 1170mm FX equivalent, with a quick switch back to full res for 900mm FX equivalent.

The only real concern that I have is what ridiculously expensive price Nikon will charge considering how high the 500 PF is (relatively, over the 300/4 PF), and how long it will take to get here ......... hopefully next year with a matching D500S

They need something to get them through next year! ...... there's not even any real buzz ..... (D5700? D7600?)

I'm not even sure that Nikon will get a high speed FX Mirrorless (Z9?) here before the Olympics, though I expect Sony will likely respond with a MKII a9. I think Nikon will concentrate everything they've got on the D6 DSLR which will still be their flagship.

Chosun :gh:

Nikon FF (and DX) Mirrorless rumours/ announcements (5 Viewers)

Given to Fly

Given to Fly

Given to Fly

Given to Fly

Well-known member

Given to Fly

Member

Well-known member

Given to Fly

Well-known member

Given to Fly

Given to Fly

Well-known member

Given to Fly

Well-known member

Given to Fly

Well-known member

Given to Fly

Well-known member

Given to Fly

Similar threads

Users who are viewing this thread