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Mealy Redpoll West Mids (1 Viewer)

Recent pics on Birdguides show a good side profile of the bird. The large bill is obvious, and in my opinion fits better for Mealy than Arctic.

Yes, definitely so. The problem is that some Arctics may also show large looking bills. Look at the one at the bottom of this page:

http://web.telia.com/~u15702529/faltbestamning/nabben/siskornas_nabbar.htm

More Arctic Redpoll bills:
http://web.telia.com/~u15702529/faltbestamning/nabben/mer_snosisknabbar.htm

Looking at the streaking on the UTCs on all of the pics, they are heavy in some, but even in the ones where they are fewer - is that streak on the longest UTC not too long and wide to be within the restraints of Arctic?

The streak is wide, but still within the restraints of Arctic (I'm a firm believer that Lee's bird was a different one, sorry Lee!), compare to these Arctic Redpolls:

http://www.tarsiger.com/images/karainio/Carhor1cy_JL906168_13102004_6.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/hande/carhor1a.jpg

reading sibleys blog (commons have two white streaks down back) marsh lane bird clearly shows this?

I'm not sure how useful this feature is, Arctics can also have a whitish central back:
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/komi/car_hor_pk_2785.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/kunsa/carhor4_DSC_8661.jpg

Many seem to be talking of the cold grey general colour of the bird, I have believed that it is mainly a feature of adult Arctic Redpolls, while 1st winter birds are usually rather buffish (although there probably is some variation):
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/komi/car_hor_1_001_1461.jpg

To sum it up for my part, the best feature (the rump) points towards Arctic, while the other features are probably better for Mealy (but many still within the variation of Arctic). It is impossible for me to say where the line should be drawn.
 
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This debate is going way over my head. So i am waiting for a conclusion to it, if there ever is one.
The bird that I saw was pure white on the underside untill the wind blew the plumage up causing a shadow effect.I have posted a few pics on the site below. Having seen Lees pics with the darker area near the vent, It appears to me to be a different bird but as mentioned before why haven't they been seen together.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77802802@N00/sets/72057594082807022/detail/

Paul

paul you aint the only one - but i am trying to follow the thread closely. As i said there are definitely 2 white-rumped redpolls - the extremely pale one with greyish head and back contrasting with the browner tail, then another redpoll with uniformly browner upperparts and white streaked underparts that took to flight exposing the white rump. The other 3 birds that took to flight simultaneosuly had brown rumps.

Even after that a Lesser was dangling to reveal snow white underparts that led one birder to think he had relocated the target bird, but this was just another lesser with a brownish rump). If there is one thing I have learnt it is the variety of underpart colour od Lessers!

I can't contribute much at this level, but even if my post is to be by-passed by the majority, i would like to add to the debate that there is definitely two white rumped birds at marsh lane. I know what I saw - and I saw this well, albeit fairly briefly.
 
Thanks for the info Edward. Perhaps, as others have said, the key to unlocking the redpolls lies in sorting out what is happening in your back garden! http://www.pbase.com/birdingiceland/image/77869233
Is it feasible that Arctic's are actually breeding in Iceland and going unidentified/misidentified as Commons, throwing everything into confusion? Or are redpolls just impossible...???

Hi Frenchy

The possibility of a population of breeding Arctics has been raised before (in BWP concise for one) but others (e.g. Knox) consider it unlikely. If there is, then there aren't many of them. But the possibility of us misidentifying birds is pretty high I'd think! The fact that the bird in Yann's photo in the link you provided has still not been conclusively identified shows how wary we are of giving anything a name (although surely it must be an Arctic Redpoll. Probably). We found that one when looking for this one
http://www.hi.is/~yannk/myndir/rarity/bb_carhor160407.jpg
and there were a lot pale redpolls around that day.

Mike Pennington said:
If any billionaires out there would like a change from buying Premiership football teams and want to sponsor a study on redpolls in Iceland then please get in touch!

Iceland might be the most expensive country in the world but millionaires would probably suffice. And if they do materialise, get in touch, I've got a spare room with plenty of Redpoll subjects waiting to be mist-netted outside the window. I'll even take my Gary Neville shrine down for you.

E
 
With regard to Common(Mealy) and Arctic(Exiples) Redpolls in the field here in Sweden I would say the following...

These birds, both species that is, display a wide degree of individual variation. I have spent a great deal of time studying Mealy Redpoll in particular here over the last three winters, partially due to the fact there is little else to see on many days here in the winter! They are fabulous birds and I will never tire of watching them. Will admit to almost tearing my hair out on several occasions, such is the variability among Mealy Redpoll, though have managed to see at least sixteen Exiples in that time, with many more possibles, some of which I just did not get good enough views of and others I simply had to leave alone, mostly female types. There will always be individuals that may not be identifiable in the field, those that fall into the grey area, so to speak. However I do feel that given good views and careful observation many of these birds can be sorted out if the observer takes an analytical approach in clinching several key pointers that go towards establishing the identification of these birds. Basically a suite of several features will add up to the full picture, whereas reliance on just a couple of more obvious field marks can lead to an inconclusive identification.
When scanning through a Redpoll flock on the deck I find it useful to concentrate mainly on the flanks initially, as well as simultaneously looking for pallid birds that may stand out amongst their Mealy relatives. I use these criteria solely for the reason that generally speaking they work as pointers to interesting individuals in the field under normal viewing conditions. Birds perched overhead may give opportunity to scrutinize the undertail coverts, which is very useful, the problem with overhead birds is that they often fly away! An ideal situation is one where the birds are feeding heavily in an area and are settled there as a result. It should be noted that here in Sweden the situation is different to the UK in that the vast majority of Redpolls are Mealy. Lesser Redpolls do occur here in small numbers,(and are readily identifiable in general) but Mealy is the predominent species from which the others are picked out.
It helps hugely if the bird can be sexed and aged if possible from the start. Any potentially interesting individual that stands out can then then be studied carefully for the following features;
(a)Rump; hopefully extensive clean white rump extending onto lower back! Not always so easy though. Exiples often shows fine pin streaks, particularily female plumages, though the rump should still be rather clean as a rule. Mealy can also display an extensively white rump, though generally only amongst males. Most of these birds will show some fine streaking on close inspection. Further complicated at times by fluffed out plumage, especially in cold conditions, which can conceal streaking and give an 'Exiples' impression. Careful observation over time will reveal any streaks present.
(b)Flanks; a rather useful feature of the large majority of Exiples is reduced flank streaking (in comparison to Mealy) over clean whitish flanks. Streaking is often broken and appearing as a series of isolated marks as the result of reduced dark feather shaft markings. Some show small, isolated dark spots on the breast.Some adult Exiples display completely clean flanks. The vast majority of Mealy's show heavily marked flanks over rather grey/brown smudged flanks. Pale Mealy Redpolls(usually male) may display whitish flanks but usually still remain heavily streaked nevertheless. Variables again occur in Mealy Redpoll, the species can show rather reduced flank streaking, though usually usually still appear as unbroken lines along the flank.
(c)Undertail Covert's; Hopefully snow white! Exiples often displays thin shaft streaks on the undertail however. On males this is often confined to a single streak on the longest undertail covert, with some first winter birds displaying a number of thin streaks. Female Exiples, both adult and in particular First Winter often display thin shaft streaking on the undertail. Mealy Redpolls generally display noticable, often heavy triangulated streaks on the undertail covert shafts, especially females. Rarely Mealy Redpoll displays a clean undertail, often with buff tones. More commonly I have seen males with reduced streaking confined to the longest posterior undertail coverts.
(d) Bill; As mentioned on the thread here Exiples usually shows a smaller bill with a straight edged culmen which makes it appear a lot less bulky than on that of Mealy. Exiples 'facial expression' is often markedly different to Mealy, appearing more gentile, smaller eyed and smaller billed, giving it a subtle difference in jizz in the field. This can be exagerated further by exiples tendency to fluff out its plumage in cold weather, making the face apear proportionally smaller.
(e)Ear Coverts; Exiples shows a diffuse darker border to the ear coverts and paler central area devoild of any markings. Mealy shows more uniform ear covert's often mottled at the centre giving the face an overall darker impression.
(f)Plumage Tones; Exiples often dislays rather cold pale yellow ochre tones around the head, sides of neck and breast, sometimes also on the back. Exiples also has a tendency to appear paler on the scapulars, particularily the lower scaps.(Often on male birds) Mealy generally shows dirty brown tones in the plumage, often extensive and striking white braces on the mantle which can vary in extent. Pale Mealy's are not unusual but the individuals I have seen have looked just that, rather pale, white washed versions of the 'standard Mealy without he yellow ochre tones observed on Exiples. Often these birds display clean white underparts which are rather toneless, yet retain the heavy flank streaks that seem a very good indicator of Mealy Redpoll.
(g) Tail Feathers;Very hard to establish, but given good views at fairly close range First Winter Exiples has pointed feather tips, with fresher fringes. Mealy has rounded, often worn fringes at the tail tips. not sure why, assume there is a different moult strategy among the species?(Perhaps someone out there can comment on this?)
(h)Tarsi Feathering; Exiples has rather heavily feathered tarsi in all plumages, presumably an adaptation to life in colder climes.

I respect that I have only have to deal with Mealy, Exiples Arctic and Lesser Redpolls here in Stockholm and that if one were birding the Northern Isles of Scotland the situation may well be more complex with Icelandic and Hoary Arctic birds to consider. I do think though that given good, lengthy views and a degree of care most birds should be identifiable. A familiarity with Mealy Redpoll is of course a huge aid to identifying Exiples Arctics, luckily for me Mealy is not in short supply here in Sweden, though the case is very different in the UK for example, so if one turns up near you, go have a look, you won't regret it!(cracking birds they are!)
Having said all that I will say that no doubt at some point in the near future I might well be seen tearing my hair out beside a sunflower bed here in Stockholm, part of the deal with Redpolls is that they are a real challenge and are likely to stay that way for a long time yet...
 
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Although a very interesting and much needed debate (both sides of the Atlantic) I don´t want to be the pessimist here - but we might perhaps be forced to live (for how long?) with the possibilities that the Arctic/Mealy problematics lies in the suggestion that Redpoll identification is more difficult in autumn and winter since 1st winter/adult females and some 1st winter males are darker and more streaked, just to become paler and more identifiable as Arctic after the first complete moult the next autumn. Since many pale Mealy occurs and causing problems these 'intermediates' should be left unidentified according to Molau - (mentioned earlier)
Question is how common these 'intermediates' are. According to Svensson out of 664 examined skins of flammea and exilipes from N. Fenno-Scandia, he regarded only about a dozen as true intermediates, thus difficult to asign to one of either species.

Also this note by Dean in his comments about the West Midland Redpoll should be noted.

[ Ageing: It has been asserted that this individual is in its first-winter (at which age greater extent of streaking could be anticipated). This seems to be based upon the 'pointed tail feathers'. However, my reading of e.g. Svensson, is that adults may have either rounded or rather pointed outer tail-feathers, so only if these feathers are evidently rounded is this significant. Also, at least one of Steve Seal's photos ( www.steveseal.fotopic.net/p47560278.html ) indicates that the central, shorter tail-feathers have quite rounded tips. This is possible in a 1Y, as the central tail-feathers are sometimes moulted, but this is apparently rare. Adults undergo a complete post-breeding moult and are in relatively fresh plumage through to 'at least November', whereas by that time most birds of the year have more evidently worn tips to the tail-feathers. Does the plumage and state of wear of this individual allow unequivocal ageing? An experienced ringer could advise, no doubt, from the exceedingly sharp photos in Steve Seal's gallery.]

In the link below the first 4 are adults (first probably a male). Nr 5 1cy male, nr 6 1cy female, nr 7 1cy female, nr 8 1cy female, nr 9 1cy male.

http://www.sofnet.org/index.asp?lev=1804&typ=1

Some more (klick on 'sidan' for more images)

http://www.praktejder.se/images/0410/SnosiskaMN-041030.htm

http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=1769.0Cheers,-greg

JanJ
 
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Further complicated at times by fluffed out plumage, especially in cold conditions, which can conceal streaking and give an 'Exiples' impression.

This is an interesting point, can the photographers remember what the conditions were like on the respective days that they photographed the bird?

This latest photo by Vince Garvey shows the rump in a new light and wouldn't score as highly on the Troy scale as it would in other photos: http://www.birdguides.com/pictures/default.asp?v=1&f=158415&r=0&st=0&q=

As each camp know though it is very easy to cherry pick photos that exhibit features which back up their argument. ;)
 
As each camp know though it is very easy to cherry pick photos that exhibit features which back up their argument. ;)

I dont quite agree Marcus (though it obviously happens) as the streakier rump pics are presumably the 'real deal' whereas the whiter rump shots are blown out or somesuch. It would be hard for the streaks to be anything other than there if they appear to be there?

Tim
 
I dont quite agree Marcus (though it obviously happens) as the streakier rump pics are presumably the 'real deal' whereas the whiter rump shots are blown out or somesuch. It would be hard for the streaks to be anything other than there if they appear to be there?

Tim

Hi Tim,

depending on how the photographer has edited the photo ie:cropped it in to far to give a bigger image can blow the shots out of proportion & alter the colours but most of the photos i believe show the bird in a true light! in my post #36 flight shot showing rump it clearly shows light streaking over the rump & no clear white patch!! However it seems to have been confirmed today that there has or is still 2 birds in the area (both with white rumps) but with 1 clearly heavier marked on the U/C's

Dave
 
N. American flammea vs Hoary

To me, Steve Seals 3 photos in post#11 show an Arctic Redpoll. The head eye and small bill, color and rump lead me to no other option.If this is a photographic effect then I'm being mislead.
Subsequently, after looking at the many other photos of the allegedly "same" bird, I'm confused as to how many birds I looked at. Some shots don't give me the same impression as Steve's shots do. So, I've finally made a decision that, even though I was in the pro-Arctic camp, I'm not a stringent advocate of that id. Inversely, I'm not in the "just a "pale" Mealy" camp, since it's hard to explain away the paleness, rump and utc streaking.
Again, I'm judging the color on a monitor and never saw the bird in life, but this would be the palest Mealy I've ever seen.
The Midland bird is, I believe a first-winter. The tail feathers look pointed (central ones look slightly more rounded) and there seems to be subtle, but noticeable moult contrast in the greater coverts - the inner three being more charcoal and the outer feathers being worn and more brownish.

I managed to swing by Yale Museum, CT on the way home and take a quick perusal of 35+ flammea's and 8 exilipes. Of all the flammea's even the ones with the palest rumps seem to have streaking above and below the rump patch. Those that had the most unmarked (or least streaked) rumps had a smaller area more central to the rump and not extending up as high as Hoary. I saw none that had unmarked, extensively white rumps.
Even those flammeas with paleish rumps still had relatively warm brown tones to the mantle, not the cold brown-grey of Hoary. Again this was only a small sample size.

It would be fascinating if this bird could be id. in the hand!

I have some shots of an exilipes with flammeas that I took last week here in CT. I can post as soon as I get home and figure out how to attach photos.
 
To me, Steve Seals 3 photos in post#11 show an Arctic Redpoll. The head eye and small bill, color and rump lead me to no other option.If this is a photographic effect then I'm being mislead.
Subsequently, after looking at the many other photos of the allegedly "same" bird, I'm confused as to how many birds I looked at. Some shots don't give me the same impression as Steve's shots do. So, I've finally made a decision that, even though I was in the pro-Arctic camp, I'm not a stringent advocate of that id. Inversely, I'm not in the "just a "pale" Mealy" camp, since it's hard to explain away the paleness, rump and utc streaking.
Again, I'm judging the color on a monitor and never saw the bird in life, but this would be the palest Mealy I've ever seen.
The Midland bird is, I believe a first-winter. The tail feathers look pointed (central ones look slightly more rounded) and there seems to be subtle, but noticeable moult contrast in the greater coverts - the inner three being more charcoal and the outer feathers being worn and more brownish.

I managed to swing by Yale Museum, CT on the way home and take a quick perusal of 35+ flammea's and 8 exilipes. Of all the flammea's even the ones with the palest rumps seem to have streaking above and below the rump patch. Those that had the most unmarked (or least streaked) rumps had a smaller area more central to the rump and not extending up as high as Hoary. I saw none that had unmarked, extensively white rumps.
Even those flammeas with paleish rumps still had relatively warm brown tones to the mantle, not the cold brown-grey of Hoary. Again this was only a small sample size.

It would be fascinating if this bird could be id. in the hand!

I have some shots of an exilipes with flammeas that I took last week here in CT. I can post as soon as I get home and figure out how to attach photos.

Hi Julian,
I was standing next to Steve on every day the small bill shot is just the angle (ive a few shots at that angle but have not published as its not a true likeness to the bird in the field,it really is as big billed as the other pics suggest) with the rump i believe some of that is down to photographic effect as those photos have been cropped in probably 3x from the original image hence the pixillation on the photos which will cause the detail to be bleached out!!

Best wishes,

Dave
 
This is an interesting point, can the photographers remember what the conditions were like on the respective days that they photographed the bird?

This latest photo by Vince Garvey shows the rump in a new light and wouldn't score as highly on the Troy scale as it would in other photos:

the rump colouration depicted in this photograph is nothing vaguely similar to the true life colouration visible to the naked eye. Not on the palest or the second bird i saw with a pale rump.
 
the slightly streaky rump is there, despite being blown out now and again. This together with the lack of rusty/buffy/rufous tones, the heavy flank streaks, the extent, (shape?) and size of the utc streaks, the small head, bill on the largish side and overall jizz, the brownish scaps mentioned by 'roy seem to favour quite strongly a rather pale flammea, or similar.

a nightmare bird alright!

Tim
 
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The streaks are threre for all to see on this particular bird, no doubt. The bird may indeed be a mealy, but the coluration on the rump of this bird (as depicted in this image) was closer to that of the lessers than the bird in question. Just wanted to make that point clear because it gives a very inaccurate impression. Even the second bird I saw which possessed a white rump and was seen in dull dank conditions, had a considerably whiter rump, comparable to the white of a bullfinch which was nearby.
 
Commic Dreadpoll

It is quite a relief (to me at least) that Wolfbirder has seen two white-rumped redpolls at the same time. I had not been able to dismiss the streaky undertail coverts as belonging to anything but a Mealy Redpoll, but yesterday morning this all changed when I saw the mystery redpoll again and had some reasonable views of it with 3 Lesser Redpolls. I have (eventually!) come to the conclusion that it must be a different bird to the one in the Lee Johnson shots. After looking at the various images I can't match the two up and yesterday morning I couldn't see any of the dark wedges on the undertail coverts. So I feel like a big weight has been lifted from my shoulders! I know most people already think there are two birds, but speaking to the observers present when Lee took his pictures (I wasn't there) and my experience on the first day (when I did see wedges) made be sceptical.

So my starting point was completely wrong and now I am much clearer about the whole thing. I think my description/identification on the first day was based on the two birds appearing at different times and both with (apparently) white rumps. There is a distinct possibility that I saw both the undertail and rump of the second redpoll later on that day without realising it was a different bird. It was a confusing period of birding. I guess you had to be there.

Regarding the bird, I'm back to square one! I agree with most that it doesn't seem to be identifiable in the field.
 
FYI..Here's some pictures of a Hoary Redpoll with flammeas taken in Connecticut, USA last weekend. This is the first record for CT since 1983.

A big incursion of redpolls into southern New England this year (along with a huge flight of Pine Grosbeaks) led to 3 other reports of Hoary in CT this last week.
 

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Not dissimilar in colouration to the pale marsh lane bird julian. The contrast to that of the other birds is what is so noticeable here - the cold greyish head and back lacking rustic tones. From the front snow white underparts.

Hope it does get ringed but its quite wide-ranging, i saw it by the entrance gate to the main reserve car park, not at its apparent favoured stretch by the middle gate of the old road.
 
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