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AGW and rising sea levels

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Old Thursday 26th September 2019, 12:52   #701
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
'Climate Activist' or 'Climate Actress' ? is the question that crosses my mind.

She looks (to me) for all the world to be dancing to the tune of 'handlers' and 'puppet masters'
Hair trigger quick with the twitter response, and that speech - did she really write it ? (I suppose there's a lot of spare time sailing across an ocean ....)

All in service of the pursuit of the Holy Grail ..... with the added bonus of intergenerational animosity thrown in for good measure !



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Only fair to reprint this statement from the young activist herself, posted on her FB a few months back. Up to you if you'd rather believe some looney conspiracy theory or someone who chooses to advocate and act on actual science.

Recently I’ve seen many rumors circulating about me and enormous amounts of hate. This is no surprise to me. I know that since most people are not aware of the full meaning of the climate crisis (which is understandable since it has never been treated as a crisis) a school strike for the climate would seem very strange to people in general.
So let me make some things clear about my school strike.

In may 2018 I was one of the winners in a writing competition about the environment held by Svenska Dagbladet, a Swedish newspaper. I got my article published and some people contacted me, among others was Bo Thorén from Fossil Free Dalsland. He had some kind of group with people, especially youth, who wanted to do something about the climate crisis.
I had a few phone meetings with other activists. The purpose was to come up with ideas of new projects that would bring attention to the climate crisis. Bo had a few ideas of things we could do. Everything from marches to a loose idea of some kind of a school strike (that school children would do something on the schoolyards or in the classrooms). That idea was inspired by the Parkland Students, who had refused to go to school after the school shootings.
I liked the idea of a school strike. So I developed that idea and tried to get the other young people to join me, but no one was really interested. They thought that a Swedish version of the Zero Hour march was going to have a bigger impact. So I went on planning the school strike all by myself and after that I didn’t participate in any more meetings.

When I told my parents about my plans they weren’t very fond of it. They did not support the idea of school striking and they said that if I were to do this I would have to do it completely by myself and with no support from them.
On the 20 of august I sat down outside the Swedish Parliament. I handed out fliers with a long list of facts about the climate crisis and explanations on why I was striking. The first thing I did was to post on Twitter and Instagram what I was doing and it soon went viral. Then journalists and newspapers started to come. A Swedish entrepreneur and business man active in the climate movement, Ingmar Rentzhog, was among the first to arrive. He spoke with me and took pictures that he posted on Facebook. That was the first time I had ever met or spoken with him. I had not communicated or encountered with him ever before.

Many people love to spread rumors saying that I have people ”behind me” or that I’m being ”paid” or ”used” to do what I’m doing. But there is no one ”behind” me except for myself. My parents were as far from climate activists as possible before I made them aware of the situation.
I am not part of any organization. I sometimes support and cooperate with several NGOs that work with the climate and environment. But I am absolutely independent and I only represent myself. And I do what I do completely for free, I have not received any money or any promise of future payments in any form at all. And nor has anyone linked to me or my family done so.
And of course it will stay this way. I have not met one single climate activist who is fighting for the climate for money. That idea is completely absurd.
Furthermore I only travel with permission from my school and my parents pay for tickets and accommodations.

My family has written a book together about our family and how me and my sister Beata have influenced my parents way of thinking and seeing the world, especially when it comes to the climate. And about our diagnoses.
That book was due to be released in May. But since there was a major disagreement with the book company, we ended up changing to a new publisher and so the book was released in august instead.
Before the book was released my parents made it clear that their possible profits from the book ”Scener ur hjärtat” will be going to 8 different charities working with environment, children with diagnoses and animal rights.

And yes, I write my own speeches. But since I know that what I say is going to reach many, many people I often ask for input. I also have a few scientists that I frequently ask for help on how to express certain complicated matters. I want everything to be absolutely correct so that I don’t spread incorrect facts, or things that can be misunderstood.

Some people mock me for my diagnosis. But Asperger is not a disease, it’s a gift. People also say that since I have Asperger I couldn’t possibly have put myself in this position. But that’s exactly why I did this. Because if I would have been ”normal” and social I would have organized myself in an organisation, or started an organisation by myself. But since I am not that good at socializing I did this instead. I was so frustrated that nothing was being done about the climate crisis and I felt like I had to do something, anything. And sometimes NOT doing things - like just sitting down outside the parliament - speaks much louder than doing things. Just like a whisper sometimes is louder than shouting.

Also there is one complaint that I ”sound and write like an adult”. And to that I can only say; don’t you think that a 16-year old can speak for herself? There’s also some people who say that I oversimplify things. For example when I say that "the climate crisis is a black and white issue”, ”we need to stop the emissions of greenhouse gases” and ”I want you to panic”. But that I only say because it’s true. Yes, the climate crisis is the most complex issue that we have ever faced and it’s going to take everything from our part to ”stop it”. But the solution is black and white; we need to stop the emissions of greenhouse gases.
Because either we limit the warming to 1,5 degrees C over pre industrial levels, or we don’t. Either we reach a tipping point where we start a chain reaction with events way beyond human control, or we don’t. Either we go on as a civilization, or we don’t. There are no gray areas when it comes to survival.
And when I say that I want you to panic I mean that we need to treat the crisis as a crisis. When your house is on fire you don’t sit down and talk about how nice you can rebuild it once you put out the fire. If your house is on fire you run outside and make sure that everyone is out while you call the fire department. That requires some level of panic.

There is one other argument that I can’t do anything about. And that is the fact that I’m ”just a child and we shouldn’t be listening to children.” But that is easily fixed - just start to listen to the rock solid science instead. Because if everyone listened to the scientists and the facts that I constantly refer to - then no one would have to listen to me or any of the other hundreds of thousands of school children on strike for the climate across the world. Then we could all go back to school.
I am just a messenger, and yet I get all this hate. I am not saying anything new, I am just saying what scientists have repeatedly said for decades. And I agree with you, I’m too young to do this. We children shouldn’t have to do this. But since almost no one is doing anything, and our very future is at risk, we feel like we have to continue.


And if you have any other concern or doubt about me, then you can listen to my TED talk ( https://www.ted.com/…/greta_thunberg...ming_…/up-next ), in which I talk about how my interest for the climate and environment began.

And thank you everyone for you kind support! It brings me hope.
/Greta
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Old Thursday 26th September 2019, 15:53   #702
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Lightbulb

Joost,

Thanks for that. 'She' has since added a further disclaimer distancing herself from another group. That's a lot for a young girl to handle - manicuring a site, multiple social platforms, school, sailing the oceans, organizing international strikes and championing advocacy, researching the full breadth and scope of climate science ......

I think you may be interested in this speech some ~20 years ago ....
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...composer=false

You may also be interested in this site - originated from one of the Elders of the original Aboriginal tent embassy in Canberra many decades ago. Recently they have been subject to a 30 day Facebook ban ..... for no other reason than - just because.
https://m.facebook.com/SovereignUnion1/


All truth is inconvenient - but some is more inconvenient than others .....



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Old Thursday 26th September 2019, 16:40   #703
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This kid is being exploited and it will harm her in the long run. It's obvious she's already injured.
Polling has repeatedly shown that in our country AGW hasn't been perceived as an existential threat. So what do the Progs do? They exploit a child in the hopes that it will incite millennials and the public. Billionaire George Soros and his Tides foundation is likely behind it all.

We have no control of what happens to our climate and many here are fools for believing we do.
This isn't to say that good stewardship re. our environment isn't paramount, many of us believe and LIVE this, not just spout it.





Same to you, I've been called worse.
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Old Thursday 26th September 2019, 17:29   #704
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. . .This isn't to say that good stewardship re. our environment isn't paramount, many of us believe and LIVE this, not just spout it.
“LIVE it” by running cattle on public land? Talk about hypocrisy!!
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Old Thursday 26th September 2019, 18:12   #705
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“LIVE it” by running cattle on public land? Talk about hypocrisy!!
Whoa, news to me... I never knew that I've been 'running cattle on public land.' Pretty hard to do as well, as all of the land around us is privately owned.
Like most Progressives you simply make crap up whether it's true or not!

It's why Trump is President and why he'll probably be re-elected.
You guys never learn.
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Old Thursday 26th September 2019, 18:34   #706
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Whoa, news to me... I never knew that I've been 'running cattle on public land.' Pretty hard to do as well, as all of the land around us is privately owned.
Ah, pinned you down at last, as I build up my dossier on your activities and location. So let me rephrase:

“LIVE it” by cattle raising, notoriously one of the most environmentally unfriendly industries in the world? Talk about hypocrisy!!

Just noticed the “I’ve been called worse” whine tucked-away well below the rest of the text at the bottom of your previous post. You just can’t help it, can you?
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Old Thursday 26th September 2019, 22:09   #707
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"Dossier"....chuckle.
I know I live rent-free in your dome, but have some flippin' pride, man.

We raise Scottish Highland cows that are about as eco-friendly as any ranch endeavor could be. Try grazing traditional Angus and Hereford cattle on noxious weeds (that would be otherwise chemically eradicated) and see what happens.

Once again you show your naivete'. Stick to copy-and-pasting of NYT and The Atlantic AGW pabulum.

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Old Thursday 26th September 2019, 23:35   #708
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...We raise Scottish Highland cows that are about as eco-friendly as any ranch endeavor could be. Try grazing traditional Angus and Hereford cattle on noxious weeds (that would be otherwise chemically eradicated) and see what happens. . .
“Noxious weeds” that need to be chemically eradicated? Hmm. . .. The fact is, no form of modern livestock raising is remotely “eco-friendly”, animal husbandry being a notoriously wasteful and inefficient method of converting sun, water and soil minerals to human food —I know it, you know it, everybody knows it. But your sense of self-worth obviously compels you to pretend otherwise so by all means continue to play the hypocrite.

"She was only a cowman’s daughter but all the horsemen knew her". . ..
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Old Friday 27th September 2019, 08:48   #709
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Joost,

Thanks for that. 'She' has since added a further disclaimer distancing herself from another group. That's a lot for a young girl to handle - manicuring a site, multiple social platforms, school, sailing the oceans, organizing international strikes and championing advocacy, researching the full breadth and scope of climate science ......
You reckon? Have you met modern kids? They grow up online and navigate that world in a way (and at a speed) the pre-2K generations are unable to match (or often comprehend/appreciate - but that's a different discussion). Her online presence is actually quite modest by moderns standards, and she 'wastes' no time on Pinterest and the like. As for "organizing" international strikes, try "inspire" instead. All that's required is setting and example, and social media and local activism will do the rest for you. Groups like XR here in the UK are more organized, but they follow her example, not her lead. As for the science, it doesn't take long to wrap your head around that; plenty of helpful summary documents out there. And she consistently refers people with questions/criticisms to the real experts, so again she's being cast into a role by others.
But again, if it's easier to convince yourself that she's a puppet and focus all the negative energy on that idea, rather than the actual message, then....well....there's a helpline for that:

https://twitter.com/markhumphries/st...78666402365440



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
I think you may be interested in this speech some ~20 years ago ....
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...composer=false

You may also be interested in this site - originated from one of the Elders of the original Aboriginal tent embassy in Canberra many decades ago. Recently they have been subject to a 30 day Facebook ban ..... for no other reason than - just because.
https://m.facebook.com/SovereignUnion1/


All truth is inconvenient - but some is more inconvenient than others .....



Chosun
Very powerful speech, though I admit to being pretty ignorant about its context. Thanks for sharing.
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Old Friday 27th September 2019, 09:06   #710
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@Litebeam, a few comments on your post:

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Originally Posted by litebeam View Post
This kid is being exploited and it will harm her in the long run. It's obvious she's already injured.
How is it obvious she is already "injured" - please explain?

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Originally Posted by litebeam View Post
Polling has repeatedly shown that in our country AGW hasn't been perceived as an existential threat.
Technically incorrect as you're ignoring the partisan split so pervasive in the US. Polls show that around a third of the US population agrees with your statement, a third thinks the opposite, and a further third is undecided on the level of the threat. Happy to provide the link.

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Originally Posted by litebeam View Post
So what do the Progs do? They exploit a child in the hopes that it will incite millennials and the public. Billionaire George Soros and his Tides foundation is likely behind it all.
Show me a shred of evidence and I'll humour the idea :)
P.S. not disagreeing that there aren't plenty of politicians/celebrities jumping on the bandwagon for their own selfish reasons, there always are and always will be.


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We have no control of what happens to our climate and many here are fools for believing we do.
Again that is demonstrably incorrect. I was encouraged you read the papers on Greenland in the parallel thread, and drew some conclusions from them. Your 'revelation' that climate is never stable, and we've had warm and cold periods throughout Earth's history, brings you up to speed with scientific mainstream in the 1920s (Koppen, Wegener, Milankovitch). To continue that line of reasoning, please answer this basic question: what is the primary mechanism by which heat (derived from the sun) is retained in the atmosphere, instead of just radiating back into space?


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Originally Posted by litebeam View Post
This isn't to say that good stewardship re. our environment isn't paramount, many of us believe and LIVE this, not just spout it.
I think we're all agreed on that, and hopefully make positive contributions where we can. But then surely Ms Thunberg's core message to tread more lightly and halt the sixth mass extinction should resonate with you? As well as her efforts not to be a hypocrite (an accusation easily leveled at wealthy liberals a la Obama, Gore etc)? I'm genuinely puzzled.

J
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Old Friday 27th September 2019, 10:58   #711
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Originally Posted by Nohatch View Post
You reckon? Have you met modern kids? They grow up online and navigate that world in a way (and at a speed) the pre-2K generations are unable to match (or often comprehend/appreciate - but that's a different discussion). Her online presence is actually quite modest by moderns standards, and she 'wastes' no time on Pinterest and the like. As for "organizing" international strikes, try "inspire" instead. All that's required is setting and example, and social media and local activism will do the rest for you. Groups like XR here in the UK are more organized, but they follow her example, not her lead. As for the science, it doesn't take long to wrap your head around that; plenty of helpful summary documents out there. And she consistently refers people with questions/criticisms to the real experts, so again she's being cast into a role by others....
Joost, I am one of those modern kids ! I've been navigating the net since before Google was a monopoly (those not quite at it's University connection inception). Unlike Generation Z though, I do have far more reservations over giving away my personal data assets for free, and so limit my platforms. Spied on by the Chinese, by the NSA, by the Faceless Corporations, the only certainty is that you are being spied on (delve into the Sovereign Union site for case in point). I have often said to my nieces that if they could remember their academic work as well as they do hundreds of dance steps and song lyrics in a row that I'd be happy to attend their Nobel Prize ceremonies !

As for Ms Thunberg, overall I find her performance too polished. Too categorical - almost to the point of religious fervor. All the hallmarks of being handled. Of course it's all the rage these days to be outraged and offended. I have seen reports (sorry can't remember the reference or characters involved - dealing with some issues that has had me viewing the sun come up way too many times these last two months before I could even get to sleep. At least it's not possums - they're quite happily annoying the new owner of that house !) of an interviewer (reputable and legitimate) putting several hard questions to her, and at a signal was ushered away by minders. Anyone running their own show could have answered those genuine questions off the top of their heads.

The puppeteers play one side off against another, one country against another, one race against another, one side of politics against the other, one group against another, one 'other' against another 'other'.

I would be interested to know what you make of the plans to double the passenger airfleet inside of 20 years that I recently posted. Both from a climate point of view, and at a removed level of reason. Does anyone think that people running industries worth trillions upon trillions of dollars really have their heads in the sand ?

It always gives me a chuckle that we are saving the world for the children and future generations. Just as well any problems don't affect those currently living - even when they will be living in the 'future'. The upshot of Ms thunberg's highly outraged speech - 'we will be watching you'. 'ding ding'.





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Old Friday 27th September 2019, 14:06   #712
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.....cattle raising, notoriously one of the most environmentally unfriendly industries in the world? .....
I wouldn't be at all certain about that - especially now that it is a Vegan clarion call ....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk3KHrqb7Uc





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Old Friday 27th September 2019, 17:38   #713
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I don't understand why this topic engenders such personal vituperation.
Afaik, cattle are very much part of the organic food chain, sort of our substitute for the buffalo or bisons that we efficiently exterminated.
No argument that feed lots and finishing the cattle on a grain feed to marble the meat is unhelpful, but apart from that peripheral issue, cattle allow food to be produced from marginal areas that are otherwise not suitable for farming.
I know nothing about Highland cattle, but suspect that Scotland breeds are tough, as would be expected from any cattle raised in a country where the thistle is the national flower.
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Old Friday 27th September 2019, 18:16   #714
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. . .cattle allow food to be produced from marginal areas that are otherwise not suitable for farming.
Marginal areas like the 200,000+ sq. miles of Brazilian rain forests cut down for hamburger meat in recent decades? In the western US, equally huge tracts of high desert have been seriously degraded by over-grazing for generations, maybe irreparably, the payoff in terms of protein per acre being almost negligible. In both these cases, I would suggest, "marginal" is very much in the eye of the beholder.

Re "vituperation", yes, I've certainly been guilty of that and it is something I need to watch.
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Old Saturday 28th September 2019, 02:08   #715
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I don't understand why this topic engenders such personal vituperation.
Afaik, cattle are very much part of the organic food chain, sort of our substitute for the buffalo or bisons that we efficiently exterminated.
No argument that feed lots and finishing the cattle on a grain feed to marble the meat is unhelpful, but apart from that peripheral issue, cattle allow food to be produced from marginal areas that are otherwise not suitable for farming.
I know nothing about Highland cattle, but suspect that Scotland breeds are tough, as would be expected from any cattle raised in a country where the thistle is the national flower.
Ed, this whole silly cattle issue is a straw man to demean me and somehow justify real AGW hypocrites in the media. Doesn't bother me a bit.

But what you related above is all 100% true.
Tens of millions of bison roamed our prairies for millennia before the arrival of the white man and his repeating rifle. I suspect those shaggies had nothing to do with climate then nor do cattle nowadays.
To be sure there are large scale cattle operations that can do a far better job as it relates to good stewardship of our surroundings--overgrazing, watershed use/abuse, etc. I've been critical of those operations in the past here on this very forum.

The lion's share of western ranches do a great job as it relates to cattle production. Most of us like beef! And if we aren't gathering wild game, we as a society depend on ranch-raised beef.
Highland stock are the epitome of enviro-friendly, it's hard to imagine a more efficient, natural way of raising meat regardless of what climate loonies may believe.
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Old Saturday 28th September 2019, 02:15   #716
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@Litebeam, a few comments on your post:



How is it obvious she is already "injured" - please explain?



Technically incorrect as you're ignoring the partisan split so pervasive in the US. Polls show that around a third of the US population agrees with your statement, a third thinks the opposite, and a further third is undecided on the level of the threat. Happy to provide the link.



Show me a shred of evidence and I'll humour the idea :)
P.S. not disagreeing that there aren't plenty of politicians/celebrities jumping on the bandwagon for their own selfish reasons, there always are and always will be.




Again that is demonstrably incorrect. I was encouraged you read the papers on Greenland in the parallel thread, and drew some conclusions from them. Your 'revelation' that climate is never stable, and we've had warm and cold periods throughout Earth's history, brings you up to speed with scientific mainstream in the 1920s (Koppen, Wegener, Milankovitch). To continue that line of reasoning, please answer this basic question: what is the primary mechanism by which heat (derived from the sun) is retained in the atmosphere, instead of just radiating back into space?




I think we're all agreed on that, and hopefully make positive contributions where we can. But then surely Ms Thunberg's core message to tread more lightly and halt the sixth mass extinction should resonate with you? As well as her efforts not to be a hypocrite (an accusation easily leveled at wealthy liberals a la Obama, Gore etc)? I'm genuinely puzzled.

J
Joost, sorry but I'm not going to address all of this. Most of it has been re-hashed ad nauseum here before.

If you can watch Greta's video and not feel sorry for her and how she has been handled, I don't know what else to say.
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Old Saturday 28th September 2019, 02:43   #717
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I don't understand why this topic engenders such personal vituperation.
It's exactly the way the financial puppeteers have designed the system - one against the 'other'. Greater and greater disunity and entrenchment. Divide and conquer, and the grand distraction continues ....

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No argument that feed lots and finishing the cattle on a grain feed to marble the meat is unhelpful, but apart from that peripheral issue, ....
Even there what an enormous opportunity! You don't need fertile land for a feedlot - just access to transport (to/from/fodder in/fertility produced out) and water. Structures used to house the animals could be covered in solar pv generation, any emissions from the animals could be captured and converted to energy, body heat used in adjacent vegetable growing greenhouses. A composting facility could combine animal waste, waste organic matter, and carbon sources to produce bulk amounts of valuable soil - the possibilities are endless !

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Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Afaik, cattle are very much part of the organic food chain, sort of our substitute for the buffalo or bisons that we efficiently exterminated. .... cattle allow food to be produced from marginal areas that are otherwise not suitable for farming.
I know nothing about Highland cattle, but suspect that Scotland breeds are tough, as would be expected from any cattle raised in a country where the thistle is the national flower.
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Marginal areas like the 200,000+ sq. miles of Brazilian rain forests cut down for hamburger meat in recent decades? In the western US, equally huge tracts of high desert have been seriously degraded by over-grazing for generations, maybe irreparably, the payoff in terms of protein per acre being almost negligible. In both these cases, I would suggest, "marginal" is very much in the eye of the beholder.

Re "vituperation", yes, I've certainly been guilty of that and it is something I need to watch.
There is no doubt that grazing animals operating in the natural cycle - ie. free to move, and subject to predatory pressures which keep them moving and not over grazing any one area - add to soil fertility and biodiversity.

On the other hand I don't think there is any doubt that fenced 'property' and set stocking destroys land fertility, degrades land hydrology and biodiversity.

The key is to employ the animals to mimic the natural processes - multi-species rotational grazing, pasture cropping, natural sequence farming, permaculture, and reconnected core biodiversity corridors and reserves - which also help environmental aerodynamics, microclimate, and rainfall. This is the way to build soil, restore fertility, capture carbon, restore the self sustaining transpiration cycle, and restore biodiversity.




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Old Saturday 28th September 2019, 11:47   #718
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Does anyone here know the amount of CO2 absorbed by an acre of grass grown for sheep or cattle? And what happens to that Co2 when the grass is eaten. I am surrounded by thousands and thousands of acres of quite intensively farmed land (SE Kent UK ) Hedgerows/woods/small copses/every type of C02 absorbing crop.

Even a week or so after being harvested the fields start to green up (absorbing C02 ?) or have I got it wrong?
Most of this land was at one time all forest but centuries of intensive management has produced a very healthy environment for plants and animals, the rate at which some crops and grass grows has to be seen to appreciate the fertility of the land.

I also understand that all this "green stuff" produces Oxygen which I rely on to exist so is there a balance for good or bad for me as an eater of meat and veg?

Trying to put it more simply, do 30 cows produce more CO2 than the 30 acres of grass they graze absorb?

By the way, I do believe in climate change.

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Old Saturday 28th September 2019, 13:06   #719
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Trying to put it more simply, do 30 cows produce more CO2 than the 30 acres of grass they graze absorb?

By the way, I do believe in climate change.

Den
In isolation, if the cows are fed solely from the grass, there is a balance, because they cannot emit more carbon than they take in.
In the macro, it is quite possible to farm in a carbon friendly manner, even with primitive methods.
The Amazon was once a garden for millions, with an ongoing soil improvement effort based on charcoaling vegetation and using that plus midden materials to enrich the soil. The large areas called Terra Preta reflect these centuries of human activity. The plagues brought about by the European invasion exterminated the locals and let the garden run wild, but the fruit and nut trees are still there. The current day ranching methods are short sighted, because the rains leach out the nutrients quickly, leaving impoverished soil. The earlier inhabitants did better, they left a richer place than before.
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Old Saturday 28th September 2019, 20:13   #720
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In isolation, if the cows are fed solely from the grass, there is a balance, because they cannot emit more carbon than they take in.
In the macro, it is quite possible to farm in a carbon friendly manner, even with primitive methods.
The Amazon was once a garden for millions, with an ongoing soil improvement effort based on charcoaling vegetation and using that plus midden materials to enrich the soil. The large areas called Terra Preta reflect these centuries of human activity. The plagues brought about by the European invasion exterminated the locals and let the garden run wild, but the fruit and nut trees are still there. The current day ranching methods are short sighted, because the rains leach out the nutrients quickly, leaving impoverished soil. The earlier inhabitants did better, they left a richer place than before.
True, but the question is, how do we implement these practices on other than an individual basis without drastic human population decrease and draconian—and I mean draconian if to be really effective—government intervention? This is the question of questions, asked many times by me and others, and I for one don’t know the answer. Do you? Does anyone here?

In the interim, we must do what we can with the tools at hand, starting with that master evil of our time, AGW, against which not nearly enough is being done anywhere, certainly not in the US where a “denier” administration is actively engaged in rolling back what little progress has been made. No hope here, except the ballot box. Fingers crossed. And then there’s the Amazon and the other rain forests, all of which are going to soon disappear without some sort of effective internationalization. And what are the chances of that? The phasing out of fossil fuels in favor of wind, tidal and solar; there might be some hope there, given the ever increasing efficiency of the technologies involved. Industrial-scale agriculture and animal husbandry with its heavy dependence on noxious chemicals of various kinds; hard to know what to do about these, though the technology behind the “nothing burger” might be a possible starting point..

One thing, however, is certain, harking back to an illusionary “Golden Age” when men lived in peace with each other and “in harmony with nature”, is a cop-out—instead think: “doing what it takes to scratch-out a living” (just like most of the world population today); internecine warfare; murderous raids on neighbors for women or other goods or just for the hell of it; short lifespans generally ending painfully in violence, untreatable diseases or infected wounds; hatred of strangers; barbaric religious practices; rotting teeth.
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Old Saturday 28th September 2019, 21:10   #721
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True, but the question is, how do we implement these practices on other than an individual basis without drastic human population decrease and draconian—and I mean draconian if to be really effective—government intervention? This is the question of questions, asked many times by me and others, and I for one don’t know the answer. Do you? Does anyone here?

In the interim, we must do what we can with the tools at hand, starting with that master evil of our time, AGW, against which not nearly enough is being done anywhere, certainly not in the US where a “denier” administration is actively engaged in rolling back what little progress has been made. No hope here, except the ballot box. Fingers crossed. And then there’s the Amazon and the other rain forests, all of which are going to soon disappear without some sort of effective internationalization. And what are the chances of that? The phasing out of fossil fuels in favor of wind, tidal and solar; there might be some hope there, given the ever increasing efficiency of the technologies involved. Industrial-scale agriculture and animal husbandry with its heavy dependence on noxious chemicals of various kinds; hard to know what to do about these, though the technology behind the “nothing burger” might be a possible starting point..

.
Sadly I disagree with your appraisal. I disbelieve the idea that AGW is the master evil of our time. The oceans are a great moderator, so nothing drastic will happen during the next century or so. That buys us time to move to emission free power technologies. If I had to pick one, I'd nominate corruption as the master evil of our time, but it has a long and sordid history throughout other cultures and ages as well, with no durable remedies yet found.
Imho, the various 'green' energy offerings all provide at best very intermittent power, at exuberant cost. They would be unworkable except for massive subsidies which detract from more plausible solutions such as more advanced nuclear power, currently the only reliable source of emission free and fully scalable power.
In terms of the rain forests and their destruction, it is an outrage that truly calls into question the legitimacy of the national governments involved, in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Solutions are well above my pay grade however.
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Old Saturday 28th September 2019, 22:19   #722
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Sadly I disagree with your appraisal. I disbelieve the idea that AGW is the master evil of our time. The oceans are a great moderator, so nothing drastic will happen during the next century or so. That buys us time to move to emission free power technologies. If I had to pick one, I'd nominate corruption as the master evil of our time, but it has a long and sordid history throughout other cultures and ages as well, with no durable remedies yet found.
Imho, the various 'green' energy offerings all provide at best very intermittent power, at exuberant cost. They would be unworkable except for massive subsidies which detract from more plausible solutions such as more advanced nuclear power, currently the only reliable source of emission free and fully scalable power.
In terms of the rain forests and their destruction, it is an outrage that truly calls into question the legitimacy of the national governments involved, in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Solutions are well above my pay grade however.
Well, I agree with you about nuclear energy (which I forgot to mention in my original post) but, unsurprisingly, little else in your post so perhaps we should leave things there?

That said, I’m puzzled by your “pay grade” remark. You feel competent, after all, to express an opinion on AGW, a complicated, highly technical subject only fully understandable in all its ramifications by highly trained scientists in faculties and committees assembled. Why not also, then, on international protections for rainforests, a political matter on which ordinary citizens can—and should—have an opinion? Probably unachievable in the present state of the world, admittedly, but still worth thinking about and working towards (e.g., in the US context, by voting a certain isolationist out-of-office).
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Old Sunday 29th September 2019, 00:02   #723
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Well, I agree with you about nuclear energy (which I forgot to mention in my original post) but, unsurprisingly, little else in your post so perhaps we should leave things there?

That said, I’m puzzled by your “pay grade” remark. You feel competent, after all, to express an opinion on AGW, a complicated, highly technical subject only fully understandable in all its ramifications by highly trained scientists in faculties and committees assembled. Why not also, then, on international protections for rainforests, a political matter on which ordinary citizens can—and should—have an opinion? Probably unachievable in the present state of the world, admittedly, but still worth thinking about and working towards (e.g., in the US context, by voting a certain isolationist out-of-office).
My pay grade does not extend to trying to impose my views on others in matters of their national policies.
On AGW, it does not require huge technical expertise to understand that in science as in other matters, 'who pays my bread, his song I sing'. Eisenhower warned against this in his farewell address, to little benefit unfortunately. So science sings the song of its sponsor, the Federal Bureaucracy.
As is, I do not believe there is anything unusual to climate except the real impacts from the human misuse of the earth's surface. I think there is no doubt that this results in desertification and destruction of much of the biosphere that we depend on.
By contrast, I see sea level rise as a chimera, as evidenced by the lack of rise in places such as San Diego or Tarawa over the past 100 or 80 years. If one looks at a global sea level rise map, most of the increase is focused on places with the worst instrumentation, such as the Philipines, but it varies all over.
In the 1840s, a British Admiralty expedition carved a mean high sea level mark on an island off Tasmania, called the Isle of the Dead. That mark is still very much visible and actually above where the sea level now stands.
The island is not volcanic and has not been glaciated, so no isostatic rebound or similar explanations will be persuasive. Facts such as this are very compelling to me, enough so that it will take a lot more than an AAAS dictum to persuade me otherwise.
I also remember an interview with Mr Mann back in the 1990s where he forecast that the East River Drive, in my home town, NYC, would be under water by 2020. It was briefly, during Hurricane Sandy, but the drive is not different today from then. In retrospect, these were clearly alarmist projections. They left me deeply skeptical of anything that relates to the AGW narrative, especially the catastrophic variety.

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Old Sunday 29th September 2019, 02:16   #724
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My pay grade does not extend to trying to impose my views on others in matters of their national policies.
On AGW, it does not require huge technical expertise to understand that in science as in other matters, 'who pays my bread, his song I sing'. Eisenhower warned against this in his farewell address, to little benefit unfortunately. So science sings the song of its sponsor, the Federal Bureaucracy.
As is, I do not believe there is anything unusual to climate except the real impacts from the human misuse of the earth's surface. I think there is no doubt that this results in desertification and destruction of much of the biosphere that we depend on.
By contrast, I see sea level rise as a chimera, as evidenced by the lack of rise in places such as San Diego or Tarawa over the past 100 or 80 years. If one looks at a global sea level rise map, most of the increase is focused on places with the worst instrumentation, such as the Philipines, but it varies all over.
In the 1840s, a British Admiralty expedition carved a mean high sea level mark on an island off Tasmania, called the Isle of the Dead. That mark is still very much visible and actually above where the sea level now stands.
The island is not volcanic and has not been glaciated, so no isostatic rebound or similar explanations will be persuasive. Facts such as this are very compelling to me, enough so that it will take a lot more than an AAAS dictum to persuade me otherwise.
I also remember an interview with Mr Mann back in the 1990s where he forecast that the East River Drive, in my home town, NYC, would be under water by 2020. It was briefly, during Hurricane Sandy, but the drive is not different today from then. In retrospect, these were clearly alarmist projections. They left me deeply skeptical of anything that relates to the AGW narrative, especially the catastrophic variety.
Eisenhower warned against the “military-industrial” complex, not the “deep state” (i.e., the “federal bureaucracy”). Today, the military worries about the effects of AGW on its bases and other installations; “Industry” divides along predictable lines, fossil fuel adamantly “against”, alternative energy “for”; and the “federal bureaucracy”, in spite of your assertions to the contrary, doesn’t have a dog in this hunt and just follows the evidence.

It’s not a case of telling other countries what to do but of entering into binding international agreements for the common good. Or, maybe, you think of the modern nation state as a fundamental unit of polity, inviolable and eternal, incapable of further development? I don’t and would be very surprised if it survives the century in anything like its present form.

Sea levels, ice melting and the rest. The following summary should put your doubts to rest about the reality of accelerating sea level rises in recent years (though I’d be amazed if it did ).

https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Our political opinions and our views on what constitutes convincing evidence are so divergent that I think further discussion would be a waste of time. You’re more than welcome to the last word if you want it.
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Old Sunday 29th September 2019, 09:23   #725
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Eisenhower warned against the “military-industrial” complex, not the “deep state” (i.e., the “federal bureaucracy”). Today, the military worries about the effects of AGW on its bases and other installations; “Industry” divides along predictable lines, fossil fuel adamantly “against”, alternative energy “for”.; and the “federal bureaucracy”, in spite of your assertions to the contrary, doesn’t have a dog in this hunt and just follows the evidence.

It’s not a case of telling other countries what to do but of entering into binding international agreements for the common good. Or, maybe, you think of the modern nation state as a fundamental unit of polity, inviolable and eternal, incapable of further development? I don’t and would be very surprised if it survives the century in anything like its present form.

Sea levels, ice melting and the rest. The following summary should put your doubts to rest about the reality of accelerating sea level rises in recent years (though I’d be amazed if it did ).

https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Our political opinions and our views on what constitutes convincing evidence are so divergent that I think further discussion would be a waste of time. You’re more than welcome to the last word if you want it.
Fugl, if you listen to that Eisenhower farewell speech, you'll note that he begins his famous military industrial complex warning with a preamble that the lone independent researcher is now replaced by the multitudes, all funded by and beholden to the Federal government. He warned against that concentration of power and said it posed a risk of abuse, correctly so imho.

The NASA charts you helpfully provided indicate that the various modestly rising temperature and sea level trends have been in effect with no radical swings since the 1880 and are consistent with an ongoing recovery from the 'Little Ice Age'. They do not show any alarming change in trend that I can discern.

What vexes me is that we have clear evidence of major damage to our biosphere before our eyes, for example a quarter of US birds gone in the last 50 years, yet the political effort is to ignore that catastrophe and instead focus on politically correct trivia such as AGW or banning plastic straws, with content free agreements that do not effectively address the ongoing CO2 rise.
If people really believed CO2 was a mortal threat, we would have a crash program to go nuclear in China and in India, because that is where the bulk of the CO2 is emitted. France did that under DeGaulle in a decade, it could be done elsewhere as well.
The willingness of the conservation societies such as the Audubon here in the US to sacrifice their core tenets at the altar of AGW ( for example endorsing windmills which are super efficient raptor killers) illustrates the degree to which they have become co-opted and useless, salt that has lost its savor, to quote the Bible.
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