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New Horizons II (1 Viewer)

I am here. Thank you for your latest explanations (Henry /tenex). I am thinking about the problem and trying to understand it for myself. Patent No 10 is on riflescopes and has already been granted (Dec 10, 2019) ;)

The ideas I am contemplating here may form the basis of a future patent but I am mostly interested in a deeper understanding of binocular vision. Whether we actually end up inventing a new concept is not critical.
 
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Evolution can't even Optimize an optical system, let alone design one

[David Williamson:] "The mystery remains of how the eye was designed and made that way so long ago".

[tenex:] Just catching up on this thread... a curious remark. Of course there is no such mystery, as the eye was neither designed nor made. It certainly is interesting though.

Our eyes; designed or evolved? This is a hell of a question. If someone had asked me this question a few years ago, I would readily answer that they evolved over many million years by the process of natural selection. If someone asks me this question now, I would say that human eyes can never ever be designed by an evolutionary optimization process. Gradual improvement (even if guided by a gradient-descent algorithm that can identify a direction vector for improvement) can't lead to an stereoscopic, auto-focus, night-day vision capable, liquid-filled, deformable lens, image-stabilized (yes, the human visual system is image-stabilized like the Zeiss 20X60), color-sensitive optical system mounted in-front (not behind or to the sides) of the head of a bi-pedal creature.

I am with Mr. Williomson. I have no idea how the human eye was created.

-Omid

PS1. I learned optimization theory from the book by the prominent British mathematician Roger Fltecher some 25 years ago. Genetic algorithm (and the whole host of similar methods developed over the past several decades) are a bunch of ad-hoc non-scientific methods. See attached PDF paper which exposes the fallacy of the so-called "nature-inspired" optimization methods.

PS2. Evolution by natural selection is a non-scientific theory as well. This is because you can not design an experiment (or hope for discovering some evidence) which can possibly prove evolution wrong. It is also a circular argument: the fittest are those who survive, and those who survive are deemed fittest. Evolutionary theory is like economy, psychology and probability theory. It is close to a being a science but not quite there yet.
 

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If my eyes are image stabilized the system isn't great.
I get 10% better resolution if I brace my head against a lamp post.

The main part of the eye is our brain, and its ability to process the information being delivered by our eyes.

Eyesight varies depending on the needs of particular groups.

If our eyes were considerably different to what they are, the same question could be asked.
Also why are we the size, shape, and why we don't have four legs, four arms etc.

I suppose we are as we are.

Maybe other creatures on other planets are shaped like balls and roll around their own environment in different gravity.

B.
 
a) The main part of the eye is our brain, and its ability to process the information being delivered by our eyes.


b) Maybe other creatures on other planets are shaped like balls and roll around their own environment in different gravity.

B.

a) Absolutely agree. The visual processor in the brain is the main thing and it works very differently from a camera. It seems to have an "internal model of the universe" which it then updates occasionally using real-time visual information provided by the eye.


b) What do you say if we ask Swarovski to send samples of their latest EL model binoculars for these creatures? I am curious if they too will notice a rolling ball effect.

-Omid
 
The real problem we have is that the more we know the more questions need answering.

I know world class scientists, who admit that they know very little about their own speciality.

I have always been amused in astronomy by people who say they have found or nearly found the answer to everything.

This has been going on for hundreds of years, and we still have more questions than answers.

B.
 
Hi Binastro,

That reminds me of an observation that I read long ago, which went along the lines of:
‘When we first started out in this area of study we were confused, and now after all these years we’re still confused but at a much higher order of understanding’

As with many things, it’s as much about the journey and the insights along the way, as the desired destination


John
 
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Back to reality...

Maybe other creatures on other planets are shaped like balls and roll around their own environment in different gravity.
It seems we may be having a conversation with one now, in a manner of speaking. I actually didn't expect to have to get into this. I was merely puzzled by Williamson's remark because words like "designed" and "made" are generally used only by evolution deniers, but with their typical beliefs there would be no remaining "mystery" to speak of. So I have no idea where Williamson puts himself, but I can address Omid.

Our eyes; designed or evolved? This is a hell of a question. If someone had asked me this question a few years ago, I would readily answer that they evolved over many million years by the process of natural selection. If someone asks me this question now, I would say that human eyes can never ever be designed by an evolutionary optimization process. Gradual improvement (even if guided by a gradient-descent algorithm that can identify a direction vector for improvement) can't lead to an stereoscopic, auto-focus, night-day vision capable, liquid-filled, deformable lens, image-stabilized (yes, the human visual system is image-stabilized like the Zeiss 20X60), color-sensitive optical system mounted in-front (not behind or to the sides) of the head of a bi-pedal creature.
Absolutely all of this was argued to full completion long ago, but here we go, as briefly as possible... I really can't imagine why anyone would want to ask you this question at all, since it obviously doesn't fall within your expertise -- and it's not clear what real scientific field does, not even optics it seems. As to biology, you're in no position whatever to make claims about what evolution can "never ever" have led to. Yes, the eye is intricate and useful yet it's also rather weird, not truly "optimized" at all, and could have been better in any number of ways. This is typical; such features develop in a purely contingent way and at times even for different purposes, as with feathers and wings. But you're just engaging in idle café chatter about irrelevant abstractions. Evolution is not an "optimization" process, an algorithm, a heuristic; it's not actually performed by anything, and doesn't have goals, but just happens. If you can't see how it could have produced eyes, you simply need to learn more about evolution, and about eyes.

PS1. I learned optimization theory from the book by the prominent British mathematician Roger Fltecher some 25 years ago. Genetic algorithm (and the whole host of similar methods developed over the past several decades) are a bunch of ad-hoc non-scientific methods. See attached PDF paper which exposes the fallacy of the so-called "nature-inspired" optimization methods.
You seem to be suffering from a ridiculous misunderstanding here. The fact that evolution is used as a metaphorical inspiration for algorithms (in the arcane field of "metaheuristics") doesn't mean that it is one itself; the fact that such "evolutionary" optimization methods may not work well doesn't mean that biological evolution doesn't work. You're confusing theoretical entities with real ones, metaphor with scientific fact -- essentially, living on another planet.

PS2. Evolution by natural selection is a non-scientific theory as well. This is because you can not design an experiment (or hope for discovering some evidence) which can possibly prove evolution wrong. It is also a circular argument: the fittest are those who survive, and those who survive are deemed fittest. Evolutionary theory is like economy, psychology and probability theory. It is close to a being a science but not quite there yet.
Evolution is actually the best established theory in modern science. It has a staggering range of supporting evidence in a variety of fields ranging from paleontology to microbiology. Ignorance of the actual content of all those fields doesn't justify a claim to the contrary. All sorts of this evidence could have turned out differently in ways that would have been awkward for evolution to explain, but didn't. (It's actually hard to "prove" any theory "wrong" because there are always explanatory maneuvers to resort to; but evolution is no different in this respect from others.) All these foolish statements have been widely and repeatedly rebutted in detail, so I'll ignore the unfortunate business of Huxley's "fittest" and stop here.

Binastro is right, there's much that we don't yet know. But these are the kinds of claims that students are supposed to learn the fallacy of in college if not high school, that make one wonder what sort of person one could be talking to... of course it's also odd to hear someone make Leica out to be fools for not licensing his optical patent, and then find that he actually doesn't understand depth of field. "New Horizons", indeed. The question I had at my first glance has been answered; this conversation can only be described as risible, ideally said in one's best Michael Palin voice.
 
It is instructive, I think, that different kinds of eyes have evolved in different creatures. For example the complex compound eyes of insects or the simple single-lensed eyes of humans. Some eyes merely detect light rather than create an image and even the simple eyes of higher animals can differ. Compare the performance of the eyes of falcons and eagles with that of humans. And if one broadens the discussion to mean light sensitivity, even flowers detect light and change position to make best use of it during the day. In short there is no such thing as 'the' eye but a range of visual organs that evolved in different ways to meet different demands.

Lee
 
It seems we may be having a conversation with one now, in a manner of speaking. I actually didn't expect to have to get into this. I was merely puzzled by Williamson's remark because words like "designed" and "made" are generally used only by evolution deniers, but with their typical beliefs there would be no remaining "mystery" to speak of. So I have no idea where Williamson puts himself, but I can address Omid.


Absolutely all of this was argued to full completion long ago, but here we go, as briefly as possible... I really can't imagine why anyone would want to ask you this question at all, since it obviously doesn't fall within your expertise -- and it's not clear what real scientific field does, not even optics it seems. As to biology, you're in no position whatever to make claims about what evolution can "never ever" have led to. Yes, the eye is intricate and useful yet it's also rather weird, not truly "optimized" at all, and could have been better in any number of ways. This is typical; such features develop in a purely contingent way and at times even for different purposes, as with feathers and wings. But you're just engaging in idle café chatter about irrelevant abstractions. Evolution is not an "optimization" process, an algorithm, a heuristic; it's not actually performed by anything, and doesn't have goals, but just happens. If you can't see how it could have produced eyes, you simply need to learn more about evolution, and about eyes.


You seem to be suffering from a ridiculous misunderstanding here. The fact that evolution is used as a metaphorical inspiration for algorithms (in the arcane field of "metaheuristics") doesn't mean that it is one itself; the fact that such "evolutionary" optimization methods may not work well doesn't mean that biological evolution doesn't work. You're confusing theoretical entities with real ones, metaphor with scientific fact -- essentially, living on another planet.


Evolution is actually the best established theory in modern science. It has a staggering range of supporting evidence in a variety of fields ranging from paleontology to microbiology. Ignorance of the actual content of all those fields doesn't justify a claim to the contrary. All sorts of this evidence could have turned out differently in ways that would have been awkward for evolution to explain, but didn't. (It's actually hard to "prove" any theory "wrong" because there are always explanatory maneuvers to resort to; but evolution is no different in this respect from others.) All these foolish statements have been widely and repeatedly rebutted in detail, so I'll ignore the unfortunate business of Huxley's "fittest" and stop here.

Binastro is right, there's much that we don't yet know. But these are the kinds of claims that students are supposed to learn the fallacy of in college if not high school, that make one wonder what sort of person one could be talking to... of course it's also odd to hear someone make Leica out to be fools for not licensing his optical patent, and then find that he actually doesn't understand depth of field. "New Horizons", indeed. The question I had at my first glance has been answered; this conversation can only be described as risible, ideally said in one's best Michael Palin voice.

Thanks for this measured, clear, and efficient response to Omid's naively imaginative musings on biological evolution. I think I'll just say "agreed" to what you've wrote and will get back to my work this morning. I hope I can manage to refrain from adding some comments to address Omid's further misconceptions about the nature of science as it is understood by those who study it (esp. historians, sociologists, and philosophers of science). I don't know his background, but I've long observed that many engineers and mathematicians (and some physicists) struggle to understand both evolution and science. More generally, they do not seem to understand the content or operation of the historical sciences (e.g. some parts of evolutionary biology, geology, cosmology, paleontology).

--AP
 
Hi Tenex,

Thank you for your detailed comments (post #167). Reading your post, I got a feeling that I might have offended you or somehow you got the impression that my post on evolutionary design of the eye was directed specifically to you. That post was simply inspired by the David Williamson's quote which you had quoted recently. I simply copy pasted your post because I found it sooner than my original post in which I had quoted David.

Second, I am not a creationist nor a denier of evolution! As you said, evolutionary theory is one of the most amazing discoveries of science and a very illuminating and important subject too. But it doesn't mean that it evolutionary theory -in its current form- explains everything. It is somewhat like economy and psychology: it describes patterns rather than making clear cause-and-effect claims with predictive power (as in Physics). When reading my post also note that I used the word "gradual" improvement. Gradual improvement of a CRT TV does not lead to an LED TV. Gradual improvement of a film camera doesn't lead to a digital camera. Gradual improvement of a refactor telescope doesn't lead to a reflective telescope. So gradual improvement has its own limits.

When I critique something - as I, for example, critique a Leica binocular- it doesn't mean I hate it or I don't care about it or I don't understand it. Film critiques don't hate films, they LOVE them! So, a critique of evolutionary theory is not the same as denying it or dismissing it. It is only through the process of critical review that theories -and binoculars- can improve. ;)

Thirdly, note that in all the posts in this topic, we have been discussing "ideas" and "concepts" not "persons". But in your post above (#167), you have started to make comments about me as a person. That is not very nice.

Fourthly, if you read my posts (e.g. # 156 and #161) with regards to why human eyes cannot on their own focus the images seem through binoculars again, you will notice that I had thanked you and others for the explanations and added that "I might be missing something which seems plain or obvious to you guys, so bear with me till I figure it out". This is a very nice and polite response to your explanations. Why do you get angry about it?

Finally, if you don't like this topic, Simply ignore it. I barely write in other topics and my posting frequency on this forum is rather low (480 posts in 16 years!!) so it should be very easy to ignore them ;)

Cheers,
-Omid
 
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I appreciate the viewpoints of many in this forum, and very much in this thread. That knowledgable folks are willing to share and explain what they understand to others is a gift. That said, I also don't mind speculative musings, and 'idle cafe chatter'. That's also a part of this place.

So, hopefully you can all carry on and share knowledge, wisdom, experience and ideas, that are in some peripheral way connected to binoculars, optics, nature, etc...

So to all on this thread: Thanks for being well spoken and civil.

-Bill
 
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When reading my post also note that I used the word "gradual" improvement. Gradual improvement of a CRT TV does not lead to an LED TV. Gradual improvement of a film camera doesn't lead to a digital camera. Gradual improvement of a refactor telescope doesn't lead to a reflective telescope. So gradual improvement has its own limits.

When I critique something - as I, for example, critique a Leica binocular- it doesn't mean I hate it or I don't care about it or I don't understand it. Film critiques don't hate films, they LOVE them! So, a critique of evolutionary theory is not the same as denying it or dismissing it. It is only through the process of critical review that theories -and binoculars- can improve. ;)
Once again, you don't seem to be in a position to offer any "critique" of evolutionary theory that could advance it. All this about the supposed limits of "gradual improvement" is more tired old baggage (from the 1860s!) hardly improved by irrelevant analogies to television sets. Discussion on this topic seems unlikely to become productive, and can stop as soon as you like. It's not really pertinent to this forum anyway.

Edit: It's the fact that you have no useful critique to offer that makes me so curious. We could turn this into a meta-inquiry if you like: why do you keep wanting to try anyway? I care about empirical truth. What's important to you here? Seriously, with no winky-smilies please.

Thirdly, note that in all the posts in this topic, we have been discussing "ideas" and "concepts" not "persons". But in your post above (#167), you have started to make comments about me as a person. That is not very nice.
No, you haven't offended me personally, nor do I intend to offend you. You really don't seem to appreciate the care I took in focusing on the flawed and misleading ideas you keep proclaiming. Forgive me for being left to infer the nature of some of your misunderstandings, and expressing some curiosity about you as a person, which seems natural under the circumstances.
 
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IWA 2020 is postponed

IWA is the German equivalent of SHOT Show. It is a major trade fair where new hunting and outdoors products such as binoculars are presented to the market. It was supposed to be held this weekend but it is posponed due to to concerns over the coronavirus:


In view of the increasing spread of the coronavirus (COVID-19) and taking into account the principles for risk assessment of major events adopted by the crisis management group of the German government and the current recommendation of the Bavarian State Government for international exhibitions, NürnbergMesse has decided to postpone

IWA OutdoorClassics 2020 to Thursday, 3 September until Sunday, 6 September 2020.
 
Adjustable eye relief binoculars have been available for a long time.
They are called zoom binoculars.
Not much liked here, but I have used this feature to set a chosen eye relief and then left the zoom binocular at that magnification.
It is often in the sweet spot for me.

With top quality movie lenses they have slight zoom to deal with breathing.
There are some still photography lenses that also have this feature.
From memory the Sony 35mm focal length is one?

B.
 
Then there's still time to get that adjustable eye relief binocular to market! ;-)

-Bill

Thanks! Now that IWA is moved to September I might actually consider attending. The original dates where right in between two other business trips so I didn't plan on going.

Adjustable eye relief binoculars have been available for a long time. They are called zoom binoculars.

Yes!! A zoom binocular will likely have variable eye relief. The exit pupil is the image of the aperture stop as seen by the optical elements following it. In most binoculars, the aperture stop is simply the clear aperture of the objective lens. So, it is very likely that position of the exit pupil behind the eyepiece will vary a little bit as the eyepiece focal length changes. I have a pair of Leica 8-12X42 Duovids, I will check if their eye relief varies by zoom.

A question: How do they keep the eye relief constant in zoom riflescopes? In some models (such as Leupold VXIII 1.5-5x20mm) the eye relief varies by magnification and it is mentioned in the official specs. But most high-end models (Schmidt-Bender, Zeiss, etc.) quote a constant eye relief. I suspect this is done by using some internal constriction (aperture stop) somewhere inside the scope but I am not sure (?)
 
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Changes in magnification, eye relief?, focal length, focal ratio.

Internal focus binoculars are optimised for infinity or possibly a finite distance for birdwatchers binoculars.
As one focuses close the optical characteristics change, but the observer may not really notice this.

It may be that this results in slight changes in eye relief and also magnification changes.
This will also depend on the observer's eye glasses prescription.
I am not too sure how observers with their two eyes differing by say 2 dioptres handle this.

I have managed to get merged images using a 7x and 8x monoculor side by side, but only centrally. Towards the edge I don't see 3D.

With scopes there will also be changes if there is internal focus,
Internal focus in binoculars and scopes allow close focus.

Scopes using relay lenses have very far close focus.

Mirror scopes using main mirror focus have large changes in focal length, particularly in small sizes, say 90mm or smaller.
There are also very large changes if diagonals or prism erectors are used.
This is because the secondary amplification is usually 4x to 6x.
These scopes are only optimised for one focal ratio, but generally work well at different focal ratios.
The big exception I have seen is the Sigma 500mm f/4 complex mirror where the image was only good at one particular distance.

With camera lenses the focal length also changes with distance to the object. This may not be noticed in practice.
Traditional macro lenses, sometimes going from 1 to 1 to infinity without extension tubes are often simple designs perhaps 4 elements and rather slow. These lenses typically have very low distortion. They can also generally be used for normal photography.

Some telescope eyepieces are parfocal. Some have changes as one switches eyepieces.
Some zoom eyepieces are also parfocal or nearly so.
So I suppose some scopes can be designed not to change as one zooms.

With movie lenses and breathing, they are designed to maintain image scale.

B.
 
What exactly determins eye relief?

Hi Binastro,

Thank you for your comments. Most riflescopes have a fixed power eyepiece group and a fixed power objective lens group. The zoom function is implemented in the erector (or relay) group. The erector group usually consists of two doublet lenses which take the real image formed by the objective at its focal plane (called 1st focal plane) and relay it to the focal plane of the eyepiece (called the 2nd focal plane). Change of magnification is achieved by varying the position of these two doublets in coordination using a spiral cam. This operation may or may not be exactly parfocal but the change in image location is not usually noticeable during zoom (any change in the image position at the 2nd focal plane can be verified if the reticle is mounted there. A change in target image position with respect to reticle position will create a visually-detectable parallax.)

Basic theory of the exit pupil asserts that it is the image of the aperture stop as seen by the eyepiece. For a simple telescope using thin lenses, this leads to the ER formula I have derived in the attached diagram. Based on this simple derivation, Eye Relief has a value slightly larger (about 10% to 30% larger) that the focal length of the eyepiece.

It is possible to change ER by changing the eyepiece focal length. It is also possible to change it by inserting a field lens at the common focal plane of the objective and the eyepiece. This lens will not change magnification but will change the position of the "aperture stop" as seen by the eyepiece so it will affect ER.

The first-order approximation theory presented above shows that the ER depends on the eyepiece design AND the arrangement of optical elements (including stops) that precede it. However, some books such as the authoritative Handbook of Optical Systems edited by Herbert Gross and other scientists from Zeiss show many eyepiece designs and for each design quote a specific eye relief. This implies that eye relief is only a "property of the eyepiece" and not dependent of the objective focal length! Is this true? If yes, how could it be reconciled with the notion that the position of the exit pupil depends on the position of the aperture stop? One way that I can think of is that most telescope eyepieces will be used at magnifications exceeding 10X so in that case the eye relief is practically determined by the focal length of the eyepiece as the factor (M/M-1) becomes close to 1.

Any thoughts or comments?
 

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So far as I am aware the eye relief is a property of the eyepiece and not the objective.

Classic eyepieces have varying, but fairly short eye relief, depending on design and is a fraction of the eyepiece focal length.

Long eye relief eyepieces must have different designs as eyepieces from 2.5mm focal length upwards all seem to have 20mm eye relief.

I suppose that moving a Barlow lens, either simple or compound will change the effective objective focal length and magnification.

But messing about with spacings and designs may give radically different results.

Also the lenses are not necessarily thin. Some may be quite fat.

B.
 
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