Zeiss: Collection of cross-section and cutaway images (1 Viewer)

John A Roberts · Jan 26, 2020

Zeiss RF Images & Information

And for completeness, the Zeiss RF binoculars. While Zeiss has produced 2 generations of them, there’s not a lot of detailed information available

A) Generation 1: from 2008 in x45 and x56
I’ve attached a copy of the 2008 European patent application, along with a translation, and an image from the patent

I’ve also attached a copy of the specification sheet for the 4 models, along with a x45 cross-section from Optics Talk at: http://www.opticstalk.com/uploads/1/Schnitt_RF_1000.jpg

B) Generation 2: from 2018 in x42 and x54
I’ve not seen a cross-section, but for comparison I’ve attached a copy of the spec’s, along with an image that I cobbled together to compare the x42 RF to it’s conventional x42 HT counterpart
- the Gen 2's are significantly more compact than their Gen 1 counterparts

As many will be aware, depending on how an RF mechanism is implemented in a binocular, it can have a significant effect on overall transmission,
the shape of the transmission curve for each barrel, and the difference between the 2 curves
see here for information about the effects on transmission: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=379668

Well that’s more than enough for today!

John

Generation 1 information and images:

John A Roberts · Jan 26, 2020

And Generation 2:

PYRTLE · Jan 26, 2020

Rico70 said:
Maybe the title could be:
"Collection of sectioned binoculars images"
... to tighten and to clarify that we are talking about binoculars?

No need to do so Rico as the thread follows the sub forums Binoculars etc > Binoculars. It is therefore correctly titled as such.

Pyrtle

Boogieshrew · Jan 26, 2020

We could have a spotting scope section cutaway thread in the scope sub forum.

Troubador · Jan 26, 2020

Boogieshrew said:
We could have a spotting scope section cutaway thread in the scope sub forum.

We could indeed and if members would like it we can do it.

Lee
Moderator

dries1 · Jan 26, 2020

Holger,

This is a great idea, good to see you around again, and hopefully more often.
As always your Binocular reviews are a wealth of information for many optic enthusiasts.

I would agree that these could be broken down by brand, year of manufacture so it would be easy for future reference, and er..editing information. Based on my limited knowledge it appears that the big three (Zeiss, Leica and Swarovski) will have the most extensive info, some for Nikon, fujinon?

I am sure there none for Zenray, or perhaps Chosen has some in the archives.

Andy W.

henry link · Jan 26, 2020

John,

Thanks for the Zeiss 8x56 FL and 8/10x42mm FL clarifications. Now I'd be obliged if you could find an 8x56 FL eyepiece image with an arrow pointing to the field lens and a label that reads "Doublet" or "Singlet".

You have such a talent for wringing the last drop of information from the internet that I think the rest of us should just sit back and turn you loose.

Henry

John A Roberts · Jan 27, 2020

Dialyt 8x30B

Further to post #24, I’ve attached a copy of the 1985 US patent for the focusing mechanism

- - - -

More re Zeiss Binoculars

• I need to post some images about the Design Selection and original Victory models, which may clarify some of the comments made between posts #17 and #35

• I still need to post about the earlier Zeiss CZJ Porros

• And there is also information and images about the Zeiss 20x60 S

• Along with some CZJ roof prism images

What I’ve not found are images of either the x20 and x25 Victory models, or any of the Conquests or Terras

Henry (post #47), if only I could! But there’s a limit to just how much I can wring out of the ‘net

- - - -

Other Images

While most of my roof prism images are of the 3 main premium manufacturers (along with the Nikon ones that I recently posted), I also have a lot of other images

I also have a number of Nikon and Fuji Porro images (most of which have been posted in various thread), along with a much larger number of other Porro images

Boogishrew (post #44), I also have a collection of spotting scope images - and for a change of pace I may start posting them after I’m finished with the Zeiss binoculars

John

Quick Guide to Zeiss Roof Prism Models

For those confused by the different series of full size Zeiss Oberkochen (‘West German’) roof prism binoculars, see the table showing in chronological order both the different series and the models in each series
The original table, along with seperate ones for Leica and Swarovski models, along with a combined table for Zeiss, Leica and Swarovski rangefinder binoculars can be found at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=370476

John A Roberts · Jan 27, 2020

Design Selection vs original Victory

The basic pattern of the objectives on the internal focus Zeiss designs (excluding the focusing lens/ lenses) is that of:
A) A cemented pair, followed by a single lens - as originally used on the Design Selection (from 1994), and then

B) A single lens, followed by a pair - as on the original Victory (from 2000)

The B) pattern is then continued on: the Victory FL series (from 2004); the Gen 1 Rangefinder series (from 2008); the HT series (from 2012), and;
presumedly also on the Gen 2 RF series (from 2018)

The exception is the SF (from 2015) which only has a doublet with no 3rd lens, see the image comparing it to the HT in post #40 above
The design is part of the ‘ergo balance’ concept, see pages 20 to 24 of The Art of Precision for the details, at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=370530

- - - -

Looking at the attached cross section image from Walter Besenmatter (see the original article and details at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=369170 ),
from top to bottom there is:
- an 8x56 Dialyt (the classic Hensoldt external focus design)

- an 8x56 Design Selection/ Night Owl, and

- an 8x56 original Victory (though note that there has been some discussion previously in this thread as to whether the eyepiece is consistent with it being 8x)

- - - -

So going back to posts #17 to #35 above:
- the images from Lee in posts #17 and #19 are of the original Victory (as is that in post #29, it being from Besenmatter), and;

- the image from Henry in post #28, dating from May 2000 - notwithstanding what it’s captioned - is of a x56 Design Selection
Significantly, the same image is in a Zeiss catalogue that I have dated November 1998,
where it’s correctly identified as a DS model, and as with Henry's image it's also marked 8x56 *

- - -

Another point of complication, is that at least some of the x56 DS models have a distinct kink in the front prism
- see both the image in post #28, and the attached x-ray image from: https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=3560828&postcount=24

This may be an indicator of later production, as a constant complaint about the DS series was it’s weight
However, perhaps more likely all the production had this feature, and the Besenmatter drawing is of a pre-production version

- - - -

In relation to eyepieces and models, as I’ve indicated before Zeiss does not list the number of glass elements in each model
So it’s hard to be definitive especially when there is conflicting information
e.g. it’s clear from some of the posts above, that Zeiss was not always accurate in captioning images

Specifically in relation to the Victory model in the Besenmatter image, on the last page of his paper
- after describing the research and advances needed to create the Victory 8x56 design
- Besenmatter then states that they still had to use 10 glass elements per side (as with the previous DS)
so the 8x56 would have a 4 element eyepiece as depicted in the image

It would seem very strange if Besenmatter who worked on the project as an optical designer would be wrong in this regard
(and presumedly he would also have had someone check the paper before publishing) - though see below

* The alternate image from the Besenmatter article makes it clear that the front/ field lens group of the 8x56 DS eyepiece does have a 2 piece construction as Henry indicated,
and so it has 11 lenses per side and not 10

At this point I'm somewhat confused! Though I think:
- it's clear that the 8x56 DS definitely has 5 lens eyepiece
- on balance it's likely that the 8x56 Victory has a 4 lens one, and
- Besenmatter was just confused with the lens counts for the two models
i.e. the three 8x56 cross-section images are correct (but of course with better information I could be persuaded otherwise)

John

p.s. from Gijs van Ginkel a photo of Walter Besenmatter along with a labelled image of the three models at: https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=3710282&postcount=43

p.p.s. I’ve previously posted other information about the original Victory series at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=377134

Troubador · Jan 27, 2020

henry link said:
The plot thickens. This image comes from a May, 2000 Zeiss binocular brochure, which only includes the 8x56 and 10x56 Victories, no 12x56. It sure looks like a photo of a real binocular that says 8x56 right on it. It's got what looks like the 5 element eyepiece from post #17, but the objective design doesn't match either of the cutaway drawings. This objective looks more like the Night Owl objective and even the eyepiece, on closer examination, appears to be a better match for the Night Owl's 5 element eyepiece.

Zeiss, Germany have said that this image and the one that Henry posted was a mock-up of what a Victory Mk1 would look like with the appropriate eyecups and badging etc. It was based on a Design Selection / Night Owl model, including its optics, so that details of the new Advanced Optical System of the new Victory line featuring thinner lenses using lead-free and arsenic-free glass would not be revealed.

Lee

Troubador · Jan 27, 2020

Victory Mk1 8x56

Zeiss Germany have identified this as Victory Mk1 8x56 so along with the image on Post 17 we now have both 8x and 10x models. They also commented that the 12x56 had a modified objective and a different ocular.

Lee

henry link · Jan 27, 2020

Excellent work, Lee! All mysteries solved. I guess it pays to know people in high places.

Henry

Troubador · Jan 27, 2020

henry link said:
Excellent work, Lee! All mysteries solved. I guess it pays to know people in high places.

Henry

Henry

I was just lucky that the right people were available when I asked the question.

Lee

Holger Merlitz · Jan 28, 2020

The 'kinked-AK-prism'

John A Roberts said:
The basic pattern of the objectives on the internal focus Zeiss designs (excluding the focusing lens/ lenses) is that of:
A) A cemented pair, followed by a single lens - as originally used on the Design Selection (from 1994), and then

B) A single lens, followed by a pair - as on the original Victory (from 2000)

The B) pattern is then continued on: the Victory FL series (from 2004); the Gen 1 Rangefinder series (from 2008); the HT series (from 2012), and;
presumedly also on the Gen 2 RF series (from 2018)

The exception is the SF (from 2015) which only has a doublet with no 3rd lens, see the image comparing it to the HT in post #40 above
The design is part of the ‘ergo balance’ concept, see pages 20 to 24 of The Art of Precision for the details, at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=370530

- - - -

Looking at the attached cross section image from Walter Besenmatter (see the original article and details at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=369170 ),
from top to bottom there is:
- an 8x56 Dialyt (the classic Hensoldt external focus design)

- an 8x56 Design Selection/ Night Owl, and

- an 8x56 original Victory (though note that there has been some discussion previously in this thread as to whether the eyepiece is consistent with it being 8x)

- - - -

So going back to posts #17 to #35 above:
- the images from Lee in posts #17 and #19 are of the original Victory (as is that in post #29, it being from Besenmatter), and;

- the image from Henry in post #28, dating from May 2000 - notwithstanding what it’s captioned - is of a x56 Design Selection
Significantly, the same image is in a Zeiss catalogue that I have dated November 1998,
where it’s correctly identified as a DS model, and as with Henry's image it's also marked 8x56 *

- - -

Another point of complication, is that at least some of the x56 DS models have a distinct kink in the front prism
- see both the image in post #28, and the attached x-ray image from: https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=3560828&postcount=24

This may be an indicator of later production, as a constant complaint about the DS series was it’s weight
However, perhaps more likely all the production had this feature, and the Besenmatter drawing is of a pre-production version

- - - -

In relation to eyepieces and models, as I’ve indicated before Zeiss does not list the number of glass elements in each model
So it’s hard to be definitive especially when there is conflicting information
e.g. it’s clear from some of the posts above, that Zeiss was not always accurate in captioning images

Specifically in relation to the Victory model in the Besenmatter image, on the last page of his paper
- after describing the research and advances needed to create the Victory 8x56 design
- Besenmatter then states that they still had to use 10 glass elements per side (as with the previous DS)
so the 8x56 would have a 4 element eyepiece as depicted in the image

It would seem very strange if Besenmatter who worked on the project as an optical designer would be wrong in this regard
(and presumedly he would also have had someone check the paper before publishing) - though see below

* The alternate image from the Besenmatter article makes it clear that the front/ field lens group of the 8x56 DS eyepiece does have a 2 piece construction as Henry indicated,
and so it has 11 lenses per side and not 10

At this point I'm somewhat confused! Though I think:
- it's clear that the 8x56 DS definitely has 5 lens eyepiece
- on balance it's likely that the 8x56 Victory has a 4 lens one, and
- Besenmatter was just confused with the lens counts for the two models
i.e. the three 8x56 cross-section images are correct (but of course with better information I could be persuaded otherwise)

John

p.s. from Gijs van Ginkel a photo of Walter Besenmatter along with a labelled image of the three models at: https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=3710282&postcount=43

p.p.s. I’ve previously posted other information about the original Victory series at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=377134

Great analysis, John, thanks a lot! I met Besenmatter in 2004 and he mentioned his desperate efforts in finding a shorter version of the AK-prism. It took him several years until he arrived at that kinked design which allowed him to make the binocular a little shorter. I would guess that the front prism of this design consists of two cemented parts and is perhaps not easily manufactured to tight tolerances. Nikon found another approach to make a compact AK-prism, but their design needed a mirror and thus lost the major advantage of the AK over the SP-prism.

Cheers,
Holger

jcbouget · Jan 28, 2020

Fascinating material John! Thank you so much for posting all these explanations, images, links and tables.
This clarifies a lot of things.

My modest contribution:
In relation with post #5, here is the Carl Zeiss Jena 12x50 Nobilem Spezial.
The first image is the one I found on the internet, and the second image is just an enlarged version, to show details more clearly.

Jean-Charles

jcbouget · Jan 28, 2020

In relation with post #20, the Zeiss Dialyt 8x30B second version.
When I found the first image, it was incorrectly labelled "Zeiss 1964", but I can tell now it's the 1969 version.
Here again, I have made enlargements of the original pictures.

Jean-Charles

John A Roberts · Jan 28, 2020

Hi Holger (post #54),

What a fascinating insight - Walter and Zeiss were certainly pushing things to the limit with the then available technology!
As you indicate, the benefit verses cost trade-off was most likely highly skewed:
the slight decrease in overall binocular length verses the likely added difficulty and expense of fabrication and assembly

- - - -

Hi Jean-Charles (posts #55 & 56),

Thanks for the additional images. With the Dialyt 8x30B, when comparing your external cutaway views to an internal cross-section one,
it’s interesting to compare the different impressions given of the lens shapes
(the attached copy is from the link at post #24: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=378377)

And I’d add a couple of general caveats when it comes to interpreting images:
- as we know from previous discussion on this thread, drawn images do not necessarily correctly show all details (which is hardly surprising), and

- during production engineers routinely ‘tweak’ designs for a variety of reasons (e.g. changes to materials, production efficiencies, addressing identified weaknesses)
so even a cross-section or cutaway of an actual unit will not necessarily exactly represent all of the production

John

henry link · Jan 29, 2020

I think this is the only Zeiss cutaway from my brochure collection that hasn't already been posted: the 20x60 S.

The wide air spaced Tele-objective, Porro II prism, Rhomboid prism and familiar 5 element eyepiece are all clearly shown.

John A Roberts · Jan 29, 2020

Zeiss 20x60 S - Image Stabilised Porro Prism Binocular

The extraordinary 20x60 S is the most expensive, highest power binocular designed for hand held use. It was introduced in 1990, and is currently listed by BH Photo for $9,000 US

In terms of optics, see the image and details from Henry in post #58

The most notable aspect is the mechanically operated image stabilisation system - you press a large button located on left side of the front of the housing to stabilise the image
(the focusing wheel is on the right side)

The definitive review is by Paul Knight at: http://www.paullknight.com/2015/10/04/notes-on-zeiss-20x60s-stabilized-binoculars/
Paul includes the most comprehensive set of images of its construction, together with a detailed explanation of the IS mechanism (see an image from the article)

Erik Bakker of Cloudy Nights has provided a comparative review with the Nikon 18x70 at: https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/521336-out-under-the-stars-with-the-nikon-18x70-and-zeiss-20x60/

And Piergiovanni of Binomania has also provided a review at: https://www.binomania.it/zeiss_20x60/

For some idea of its size, see the image comparing it to a Swarovski 15x56 from: https://www.flickr.com/photos/spiritusmentis/40014205831/in/photostream/

I’ve also attached a copy of the two US patents (there are different claims and diagrams in the second)

John

p.s. there was also a monocular version. I’ve attached the specifications from a November 1998 catalogue which shows both
- it also shows the spec’s for other products of the period including the Design Selection series

jcbouget · Jan 29, 2020

A certificate established by Zeiss explains the effect of this stabilization system.
The curve shows the attenuation of tremors depending on their frequency. The attenuation is excellent for high frequencies, but inexistent below 1 Hz. This explains the floating or wandering image some users have reported.

The following video illustrates this behavior:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1LvwvVv7GM

Jean-Charles

Zeiss: Collection of cross-section and cutaway images (1 Viewer)

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