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Caspian Gull or Steppe Gull ? Xinjiang province,China (1 Viewer)

X

xuky.summer

Well-known member
http://www.birdnet.cn/showtopic.aspx?topicid=448713&forumpage=1&onlyauthor=1
These photos are taken in xinjiang korla, China, East longitude 86.06,north latitude 41.68.
Click the "EXIF信息" button to see the accurate shooting date.
1#-4# are in winter, 5# is in summer.
S,S6,S7,S8,S9,S11 is Vega Gull? But the leg is pale pink, the head is too pale.
May be mongolicus ? but the leg is shorter.
What is the rest, Caspian Gull or Steppe Gull? The cachinnans have breeding records in xinjiang. barbensis distribution range is also very near xinjiang. the straight biil and small gonys fit cachinnans, but the small eyes and extensive black primaries reaches P3 fit barbensis.

http://www.birdnet.cn/showtopic-448852.aspx
Is this a Grey-sided Bush Warbler? the bill is faint and eyebrows are same color. May be Chestnut-crowned Bush Warbler?

Thank you very much.
xuky
 
Just bumping the post as I'm interested to hear the views of more enlightened folks than I am on the gulls.
 
Hi xuky.

Fine set of gull pic ypu have!

Regarding the identification of these I don´t think there´s cachinnans or barabensis among them. L. mongolicus can show much black on primaries - see here:
http://birdsmongolia.blogspot.se/2012/10/gulliverss-travels-2012-text-by-andreas.html

The January bird with all white head and yellow/yellowish legs looks like mongolicus, with fully grown primaries or 'taimyrensis' - usually not fully grown primaries at this time of year. However, I wonder if mongolicus has such yellow legs at this time of year but much variation - both in wing pattern and leg colour in mongolicus. L.vegae would show more or less streaked heads at this time of year and not showing yellow legs.

I would put my bet on that most of these gulls are taimyrensis or mongolicus with the last two juveniles looking like heuglini/taimyrensis, if all this makes sence...

JanJ
 
hi xuky.summer,

although not really familiar with these taxons, here's my view:
s. - probably a mongolian, on bill shape, in spite of extensive neck striation; vega also has short pinkish legs but somehow looks different.
s1. - two adult mongolian in breeding plumage. note that many have pinkish legs in spring too.
s2-s6 all look like mongolian to me.
s7 would be a candidate for vega? not really. but it would be really interesting to know if this is within the variation of mongolicus. very strange primary pattern...:smoke: could well be a taimyrensis pinkish legs and strong striation, as i think are s8 and s9 - all look like taimyr gulls.
s10-s12, 15, 22, 23 - all look to me like mongolians
s17, 18 - black-headed
x1 - a very nice patterned mongolian!
x2 - two mongolians, showing that adult types can have the dark markings on primary coverts, a thing which to some extent occures in heuglini.
x3 - apparently an adult and a starting 3rd cycle mongolian
x4 - beginning of 3rd cycle mongolian, note again the caspian like rectangular demarcated p10 tongue.
x5 ad and fresh juv, x6 and x7 juvenile --> first winter mongolians, note that in x7 a short tongue is already visible in p10 -another feature shared with caspian gull. quite fascinating birds there and i'm far from sure i have id-ed them correctly.

all the best,
 
Hi JanJ, lou
Thank you.
Some question, my english is very poor,^_^， I hope you understand what I mean.
I think these gulls are different from the Mongolian Gull in Japan and Hong Kong. They all have pink legs and relatively extensive head streaking in same time.
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/mongolicus/index.html
mongolicus ? qingdao(Tsingtao), shandong. 2013-01-23
http://www.birdnet.cn/showtopic.aspx?topicid=446518&forumpage=1&onlyauthor=1
http://www.birdnet.cn/showtopic.aspx?topicid=446205&forumpage=1&onlyauthor=1

The gulls in 5# are in breeding time, They should be the same gull with S1,S2,S3,S4 and S11. So I think they should not be taimyrensis, which is generally regarded as a hybrid population between Vega Gull and Heuglin's Gull. They also have relatively extensive head streaking.
http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/a_heuglini.html

The juveniles in 5# were taken in June, July and August, they should not be taimyrensis.
If they are mongolicus, greater coverts should have more white than dark in each feather [ dark in form of relatively narrow banding] giving impression of overall paleness.

xuky
 
Last edited:
Hi again xuky.

Complicated. Leg colour are variable in mongolicus.

The juveniles x6 + x7 are in my eyes not mongolicus but heuglini type, or what ever we shall call them (LBBG type) Considering the breeding ground of 'taimyrensis' (usually regarded as an invalid taxon (Yésou 2002), Taimyr peninsula - juveniles as early as June, July or August might seem a bit unlikely. http://www.birdskoreablog.org/?p=2275
http://chrisgibbins-gullsbirds.blogspot.se/2011/12/1cy-gulls-from-azerbaijan.html
http://seichoudoku.at.webry.info/200912/article_5.html

Birds s7 - s9 (taken begining of January) are moulting primaries and together with the overall impression of these they are likely to be - either heuglini/taimyrensis or hybrids with something else involved?

I´ll be looking further in to this xuky.

JanJ
 
Hi JanJ.
thank you again, ^_^!

The juveniles x5+x6 + x7 were born in local, where they breed.
Korla location:
 

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JANJ said:
Hi again xuky. Complicated. Leg colour are variable in mongolicus. The juveniles x6 + x7 are in my eyes not mongolicus but heuglini type, or what ever we shall call them (LBBG type) Considering the breeding ground of 'taimyrensis' (usually regarded as an invalid taxon (Yésou 2002), Taimyr peninsula - juveniles as early as June, July or August might seem a bit unlikely. http://www.birdskoreablog.org/?p=2275
http://chrisgibbins-gullsbirds.blogspot.se/2011/12/1cy-gulls-from-azerbaijan.html
http://seichoudoku.at.webry.info/200912/article_5.html Birds s7 - s9 (taken begining of January) are moulting primaries and together with the overall impression of these they are likely to be - either heuglini/taimyrensis or hybrids with something else involved? I´ll be looking further in to this xuky. JanJ
Click to expand...

Hi Janj and Xuky,
If you haven't seen this paper, it's worth reading for possible conclusions about the birds on this thread, and you might like to contact the authors:
Dijk, K van, S Kharitonov, H Vonk and B Ebbinge. 2011. Taimyr Gulls: evidence for Pacific winter range, with notes on morphology and breeding. Dutch Birding 33: 9-21.

PM me if you want.
MJB
 
Hello MJB and thanks.

I have read the paper and I tried to link it here. However, at the moment there seems to be something wrong with the pdf file, it gets stuck in the begining. Since Klas is a friend of mine on FB I did consider putting the pic there, with xuky´s proof of course

JanJ
 
hi Xuky, I would like to congratulate you with your nice set of excellent photographs of large gulls, taken in a very interesting area.

I hope you are able to download and to read the pdf of our paper on Taimyr Gulls. All photographs are taken in breeding colonies on Taimyr. Please be aware that we still don't know much about gulls breeding in many parts of Russia (including Taimyr and a huge area around Taimyr).

I don't exclude that [some (?)] Taimyr Gulls / large gulls breeding in a large area in northern Russia around Taimyr might also spend the winter in and around Korla. Do you have any idea about the numbers of large gulls wintering over there? 10s? 100s? 1000s?

---------------------------

Others, please excuse me (and my co-authors), but we are not very keen in identifying large gulls. I hope you will be able to help Xuky to get a better idea what kind of gulls are staying over there.
 
Hi Klaas.
Thank you very much!
I still have a little curious, I remember the taimyrensis also have relatively extensive head streaking in winter.
I wil ask my friend how many big gulls in there, late reply to you.
 
xuky.summer said:
I wil ask my friend how many big gulls in there, late reply to you.
Click to expand...

Hi Xuky, for what it's worth assuming the photos were taken at Bosten Lake (Bósīténg Hú) I was there at Chinese New Year in 2003 at a beach which holds an ice carving festival and whilst the lake was frozen a long way out there were only a handful of large gulls too distant to identify. The same beach in in Jul 2007 had roughly a dozen Caspian Gulls - only other gulls I identified then were Black-headed of which there were at least 100.

Cheers
Mike
 
Interesting photos Xuky!
I agree with Lou's identifications, with the small addition that s7 looks like taimyrensis to me. A Vega Gull at this date would have finished its moult, would have a larger white mirror on outermost primary, and little or no black on 4th primary.
As for the juvenile birds: given that they were born locally, and are shown here in the presence of adult Mongolian Gulls, I think it is only logical that they must be Mongolian too. I would not compare too much with photos from Japan. I know that mongolicus is often claimed there, but there is no proof that that is what they really are. For instance, many of the 1st-winter birds seen there have rather barred pattern on tail bases, as opposed to the clean white tail base seen in Mongolian Gulls from the breeding grounds (e.g. http://www.martinreid.com/Gull website/mongp01.html).

Something else: I notice a Common Gull in photo s15. Have you taken many photos of that species over there? I would be very interested in them.
 
Yes, upper right.
Particularly in the race kamtschatschensis there is often the impression of a small gonys spot.
 
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