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AOU-NACC Proposals 2020

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Old Wednesday 18th March 2020, 22:16   #51
GMK
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Common Kingfisher: fascinating record! Hope its identity gets verified satisfactorily. While dealing with it, perhaps the NACC could settle the correct scientific name for the species under ICZN rules? See posts 73, 75-6, 78-79 in this thread.

That will not happen. As I informed Andy Kratter, the author of the relevant proposal, by e-mail (16 Dec 2018), the claimed specimen of Alcedo atthis in Cuba was reportedly destroyed by rats. The fact that the specimen no longer existed was also clearly signalled in our field guide to the West Indies published last year (p. 375). The person who is said to have collected the specimen lived in Europe for some time.
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Old Wednesday 18th March 2020, 22:21   #52
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Technically the ABA has no prohibitions about adding ship-assisted birds, but they generally will only review birds that pass state/provincial checklist committees first. Most of which seemingly do not accept such birds.

So ship-assisted birds often end up in a weird limbo of not technically uncountable, but never added.
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Old Thursday 19th March 2020, 02:04   #53
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Though they missed a trick on the English name . . . since Haida Gwaii is rainforest, they should've just called it 'Saw Wet Owl'
Or they could have used the Haida name for the bird -- that would put the owl among the pigeons again.
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Old Thursday 19th March 2020, 03:32   #54
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Common Kingfisher: fascinating record! Hope its identity gets verified satisfactorily. While dealing with it, perhaps the NACC could settle the correct scientific name for the species under ICZN rules? See posts 73, 75-6, 78-79 in this thread.
Unfortunately the only ID information provided for this record are the biometrics, and these don't fit the published biometrics of Common Kingfisher eg tarsus too long, tail too short.
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Old Thursday 19th March 2020, 14:48   #55
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Technically the ABA has no prohibitions about adding ship-assisted birds, but they generally will only review birds that pass state/provincial checklist committees first. Most of which seemingly do not accept such birds.

So ship-assisted birds often end up in a weird limbo of not technically uncountable, but never added.
Like the Hooded Crow in Staten Island.
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Old Wednesday 25th March 2020, 23:55   #56
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“2020-C-7: Adopt West African Crested Tern as the English name for Thalasseus albidorsalis

Looks like they accepted the split of Royal Tern as proposed in 2020-A-9.

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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 11:49   #57
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Like the Hooded Crow in Staten Island.
And the House Crows which have bred in Florida!
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 13:59   #58
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And the House Crows which have bred in Florida!
The FOSRC is on the third round of voting for the submission to add the House Crow to the State List. Votes of 7/7 or 6/7 pass, 0/7 or 1/7 to not be accepted. Otherwise back on the docket it goes.
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 19:27   #59
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The FOSRC is on the third round of voting for the submission to add the House Crow to the State List. Votes of 7/7 or 6/7 pass, 0/7 or 1/7 to not be accepted. Otherwise back on the docket it goes.
Andy
Thank you, Andy. Just curious -is there a limit to the number of "rounds" and do you happen to have an idea when this case might be decided/announced?
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Old Friday 27th March 2020, 15:11   #60
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Finally back to a computer and caught up on sleep from some covid19 related travel adventures.

I should hope that the Paltry/Mistletoe Tyrannulet split goes through. The birds are 100% diagnosable, physically distinct and easy to ID in the field, differ in voice, and differ in habitat. I feel the burden of proof should be in showing them to be conspecific if that is one's viewpoint.

It seems the balance now points at Mexican Duck increasingly needing to be split in order to justify other splits in this group but I won't be surprised by a no vote.

On the Unicolored Jay proposal, it seems that it could have / should have been written to offer the options of 2/3/4/5 way splits - I could see a 3 way split (concolor / oax+gue / S of Isthmus) or a 5 way split (as proposed + splitting Nic/Hon birds from Chiapas/GT birds) being argued just as well as the 4 way split, and I could see a 3 way split being more easily digested. Curious to see how it shakes out but I think at least a 3 way split looks pretty hard to argue against. As well, still disappointed that the CA/Woodhouse's proposal didn't treat Sumichrast's Jay.

I will just give up on NACC if the the Antthrush split fails.
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Old Saturday 28th March 2020, 07:03   #61
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Re: Proposal 2020 C-6 page 23 of :
https://americanornithology.org/wp-c.../03/2020-C.pdf .
Does not address Bird Forum's read on this.
https://www.birdforum.net/showthread...urmeister+1853 .
I was wondering if Bonapart's mentioning pipra Pallas in genus Pipripicus page 123 of:
https://books.google.com/books?id=BR...gbs_navlinks_s .
Or what species he placed in Pipra and Dixiphia on page 315 of the same ?? Or page 6 of here:
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...age/8/mode/1up . Is helpful?
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Old Saturday 28th March 2020, 12:54   #62
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Not sure I like dropping the "Scrub-" portion from Scrub-Jay

Nice to see the White-eye split and Northwestern Crow lump, and I am surprised there is a proposal for Saw-whet Owl split. As far as Pacific Northwest splits, I would have guessed the Spruce or Ruffed Grouse before this.
Agreed on dropping Scrub from Scrub-Jay. They are a taxonomic unit, are well known by that name, and itís a short and easy to remember name. Seems totally unnecessary and counter to the desire for name stability.
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Old Saturday 28th March 2020, 13:43   #63
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Agreed on dropping Scrub from Scrub-Jay. They are a taxonomic unit, are well known by that name, and itís a short and easy to remember name. Seems totally unnecessary and counter to the desire for name stability.
Best scrub it then.

John
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Old Saturday 28th March 2020, 21:03   #64
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Agreed on dropping Scrub from Scrub-Jay. They are a taxonomic unit, are well known by that name, and it’s a short and easy to remember name. Seems totally unnecessary and counter to the desire for name stability.
They are a taxonomic unit, but not a complete one: calling them 'Scrub-jay' but not calling other Aphelocoma species 'Scrub-jay' as well, suggests that e.g. Mexican 'Non-scrub' Jay and Unicolored 'Non-scrub' Jay, are more closely related to e.g. Steller's 'Non-scrub' Jay, than they are to any of the Scrub-jays. Which is not true. To my mind, 'Scrub-jay' should either be dropped, or it should be used for all the Aphelocoma species.
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Old Saturday 28th March 2020, 21:15   #65
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They are a taxonomic unit, but not a complete one: calling them 'Scrub-jay' but not calling other Aphelocoma species 'Scrub-jay' as well, suggests that e.g. Mexican 'Non-scrub' Jay and Unicolored 'Non-scrub' Jay, are more closely related to e.g. Steller's 'Non-scrub' Jay, than they are to any of the Scrub-jays. Which is not true. To my mind, 'Scrub-jay' should either be dropped, or it should be used for all the Aphelocoma species.
I understand this logic but disagree with the need to have 1:1 alignment of genera to English group names. Should Hawfinch be a Grosbeak? Should Brambling be Mountain Chaffinch? Should Dunnock be Hedge Accentor? Should group names be dropped from masses of tropical species that get split, losing descriptive information along the way? Shall Northern, Natterer's, Bolivian, Sooretama, and Planalto Slaty-Antshrikes all drop the "Slaty?" Black-crowned Antshrike was already wisely renamed out of the Slaty-Antshrike group when found to not nest with the other Slaty-Antshrikes, so the Slaty-Antshrikes are a monophyletic group. There are likely hundreds of examples along these lines. As long as the Scrub-Jays are a monophyletic group I don't see any harm in having them called Scrub-Jays, denoting their closer relationship to each other.
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Old Saturday 28th March 2020, 21:20   #66
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I understand this logic but disagree with the need to have 1:1 alignment of genera to English group names. Should Hawfinch be a Grosbeak? Should Brambling be Mountain Chaffinch? Should Dunnock be Hedge Accentor? Should group names be dropped from masses of tropical species that get split, losing descriptive information along the way? Shall Northern, Natterer's, Bolivian, Sooretama, and Planalto Slaty-Antshrikes all drop the "Slaty?" Black-crowned Antshrike was already wisely renamed out of the Slaty-Antshrike group when found to not nest with the other Slaty-Antshrikes, so the Slaty-Antshrikes are a monophyletic group. There are likely hundreds of examples along these lines. As long as the Scrub-Jays are a monophyletic group I don't see any harm in having them called Scrub-Jays, denoting their closer relationship to each other.
With this 100%. Should Chiffchaff be Chiffchaffing Leaf Warbler?* (Although "Eyebrowed Hawfinch" for Evening Grosbeak would be nice. )

John

* No. Or rather, No!!!

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Old Saturday 28th March 2020, 21:26   #67
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They are a taxonomic unit, but not a complete one.
Unless there is another species that nests within the Scrub-Jays that does not currently bear the name Scrub-Jay, they are arguably a taxonomically complete unit.
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Old Saturday 28th March 2020, 21:44   #68
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Although "Eyebrowed Hawfinch" for Evening Grosbeak would be nice.

John
I'd go the other way and say Hawfinch should be Grey-naped Grosbeak, especially since the other two Coccothraustes species are called "Grosbeak"

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Old Saturday 28th March 2020, 22:00   #69
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I'd go the other way and say Hawfinch should be Grey-naped Grosbeak, especially since the other two Coccothraustes species are called "Grosbeak"

But they're not related to Pheucticus
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Old Saturday 28th March 2020, 23:13   #70
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European ornithologists should rename all American fake warblers to Arboreros.
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Old Saturday 28th March 2020, 23:17   #71
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European ornithologists should rename all American fake warblers to Arboreros.
Are Europeans not the ones who named the new worlds birds Warblers, Robins, Orioles, etc in the first place?
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Old Sunday 29th March 2020, 07:48   #72
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I'd go the other way and say Hawfinch should be Grey-naped Grosbeak, especially since the other two Coccothraustes species are called "Grosbeak"

Good answer, but I think Nutty's point has you on the hip!

John
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Old Sunday 29th March 2020, 11:27   #73
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Are Europeans not the ones who named the new worlds birds Warblers, Robins, Orioles, etc in the first place?
It was before it was known they are not related. Calling them 'warblers' can confuse people who might think that Parulidae are related to Eurasian warblers Sylvia. Besides, many of these 'wood warblers' do not live in woods and make diverse sounds, many not at all warbling. It would be illogical to change the name of Olive Warbler but not the names of Parulidae warblers.
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Old Sunday 29th March 2020, 11:39   #74
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It was before it was known they are not related. Calling them 'warblers' can confuse people who might think that Parulidae are related to Eurasian warblers Sylvia. Besides, many of these 'wood warblers' do not live in woods and make diverse sounds, many not at all warbling. It would be illogical to change the name of Olive Warbler but not the names of Parulidae warblers.
Funny how we've managed to date. Never in the course of my birding career did I have a problem understanding that small insectivorous birds from the Old World were not closely related to small insectivorous birds from the New World. Or even that a Wood Warbler was not the same as any of the wood warblers.

I get tired of this nonsensical race to the bottom in assessing people's capacity to not be confused by similarity. Stability in names is a thousand times more important than uniformity. And it's still Bearded Tit.

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Old Sunday 29th March 2020, 11:58   #75
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Funny how we've managed to date. Never in the course of my birding career did I have a problem understanding that small insectivorous birds from the Old World were not closely related to small insectivorous birds from the New World. Or even that a Wood Warbler was not the same as any of the wood warblers.

I get tired of this nonsensical race to the bottom in assessing people's capacity to not be confused by similarity. Stability in names is a thousand times more important than uniformity. And it's still Bearded Tit.

John
Where the hell were you when I needed you John........................
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