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AGW and rising sea levels

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Old Sunday 10th November 2019, 08:55   #751
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There is more intractable waste produced by wind power than by nuclear, as the rare earths required for the generators are hugely messy to extract and leave behind square miles of earth deeply contaminated with thorium, which usually is found associated with the rare earths. Imho it was one of China's more ecologically sensitive decisions to massively boost the price of these elements, the intolerable environmental damage was not reflected in the market value.

I do agree that the economics of nuclear today are cloud cuckoo absurd, but if we are to lift several billion out of dire poverty, we need reliable power without massive emissions.
Australia in theory has everything needed to show that solar is the answer, lots of sun, plentiful land and supportive regulators and governments. Sadly, the experience to date has been spotty, erratic power at inflated prices. That is what keeps people looking at nuclear, warts and all we know it works reliably.
There is enough solar influx here to not only power the average household, but also the average transport (consumed by a battery powered car) just with Solar PV on the average rooftop.

The missing piece of the jigsaw puzzle (apart from Solar PV panels actually on every rooftop instead of on 'farms' displacing arable land) is the transmission network. It's just not designed for omnidirectional networked electricity flow - it needs a major redo.

Under the cover of global warming alarmism, the publicly owned network was 'gold plated' (in terms of redundancies to reduce maintenance of the traditional network). Then, again, under a further round of global warming alarmism, this public asset was sold off for a song to an oligopoly of private companies supposedly to reduce the electricity price paid by consumers. However it is the same old story of corporate mafioso - again under the guise of global warming alarmism, the retail price was jacked up manyfold and has increased on that trajectory ever since. Virtually none of those profits stolen from the public have been invested in making Solar PV viable. The 'robber barons' are alive, ridiculously fat and happy !

Ding effin' Ding !!!





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Old Monday 9th December 2019, 00:09   #752
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https://theconversation.com/500-year...V_LPfAZ7Z1L-Mo

Interesting rainfall reconstructions.
3 of the worst 5 single droughts were in the 1700's - must have been drier than a dead dingo's d*nger !
Also later that century - decades long flooding !

Also, yet another "index" created to try and explain weather cycles. Looks like an El Nino-like weighted summer again for us judging by the absence of rainfall to see out the year - the bushfire induced orange skies and smoke filled oxygen short air should be great training for budding Mars astronauts !






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Old Tuesday 17th December 2019, 00:57   #753
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Couldn't help but chuckle this week...schadenfreude watching the 'woke' Socialist Labour party get completely embarrassed.
All the best to Boris (and Brexit.)

The resident elitist hypocrites here are, no doubt, still in a state of shock.
Not only will our Earth survive; Britain will prosper.

Cheers Britain!
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Old Tuesday 17th December 2019, 06:50   #754
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Couldn't help but chuckle this week...schadenfreude watching the 'woke' Socialist Labour party get completely embarrassed.
All the best to Boris (and Brexit.)

The resident elitist hypocrites here are, no doubt, still in a state of shock.
Not only will our Earth survive; Britain will prosper.

Cheers Britain!
Nah, Britain's run out of Sovereign Nations to 'Colonize' and plunder

Scotland wants off the sinking ship and who only knows what Ireland will do ?

Boris will have to set the circus to one side now and actually get back to 'governing' - that will be interesting .......

Meanwhile it's hotter than a slow cooked chook here - mostly due to drying the country out and firebugs/government bodies setting it alight ......




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Old Friday 3rd January 2020, 16:37   #755
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“A burning nation led by cowards. . .”.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/03/o...core-ios-share
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Old Saturday 4th January 2020, 02:21   #756
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“A burning nation led by cowards. . .”.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/03/o...core-ios-share
This bloke - PM Scott Morrison, or 'ScoMo' as he likes to be known, or "ScuMo" as he is becoming increasingly known - is an absolute d*ckh**d.

He is an exceptionally poor leader.

He is a dead man walking.

After stupidly going on holidays to Hawaii in the midst of a crisis which is seeing an area the size of Ireland burnt to the ground, he is now cynically touring fire grounds for pathetic photo ops (known locally as 'going the crawl' which is low even for a politician) as volunteers toil away month after month. I was heartily reassured to see the grizzled old RFS volunteer refuse to shake his hand.
https://themindunleashed.com/2020/01...pNPtxwua9mMhlA



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P.S. This has nuffink at all to do with climate change but I'll learn yas all on that later ......
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Old Saturday 4th January 2020, 06:51   #757
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. . .P.S. This has nuffink at all to do with climate change but I'll learn yas all on that later ......
Au contraire, drought and record high temperatures have everything to do with AGW and little (if anything) to do with land mis-management. And carbon emissions —the root cause—are unlikely to be brought under control soon enough to avert near-term disaster. Australia’s comparatively empty but much of the rest of the world is teeming with an ever-growing human population which cannot be adequately fed by the kind of boutique agriculture you’ve been advocating.

These inconvenient facts have been repeatedly pointed out to you by me and others but to absolutely no avail; you simply ignore them and blithely sail on. I can’t imagine it will be any different this time. . ..

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Old Sunday 5th January 2020, 01:12   #758
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Au contraire, drought and record high temperatures have everything to do with AGW and little (if anything) to do with land mis-management. And carbon emissions —the root cause—are unlikely to be brought under control soon enough to avert near-term disaster. Australia’s comparatively empty but much of the rest of the world is teeming with an ever-growing human population which cannot be adequately fed by the kind of boutique agriculture you’ve been advocating.

These inconvenient facts have been repeatedly pointed out to you by me and others but to absolutely no avail; you simply ignore them and blithely sail on. I can’t imagine it will be any different this time. . ..
That NYT article was rather emotional and 'incendary' going for it's usual grab bag of disparate symptoms to try and prove CC. It doesn't.

Great Barrier Reef dying? - mostly agricultural chemicals in the run off.

Imagine if you will France and Germany (and probably a few other countries too!) concreted over and placed in the middle of Australia in 100°F temperatures - what do you think will happen to the temps once that air gets to Eastern Australia ?

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/sydney-s...-N-i0FzmLeIPvM

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This pic for context - for even though it's a concrete jungle now - this is where it is sited - a river valley ...... the hottest place on earth ! ding ding !!

What if I told you the current conflagrations were due to repressed Aboriginal Sovereignty? or the feral Red Fox? or the proliferation of concrete guttering? all of which correlates nicely. Would that door to an open mind crack open just a tiny little bit?

First it may require even the remotest consideration that Western Science, Academic Rigor, The Scientific Method, etc, are just but the tiniest subset of all knowledge - wisdom so advanced that you would probably have to consider it magic ......

When that swiss cheese block of assumptions and error multiplied navel gazing modelling evolves to a point where it's open to far bigger boundaries I will revisit. In the interim all I can do is present the knowledge - whether it's given to me by 8ft tall ancient warriors that stroll through doorways into this world (from realms where waiving your Doctorate around is seen as no more impressive than a two year old banging building blocks together), trees that shimmy and shake and telepathically talk to me, or eagles whispering to me on the wind, or emergent 'science' ..... it's up to everyone else to open their eyes instead of blithely sailing on .... coz the current course heads rapidly towards a giant plug hole.

Btw - I've never advocated "boutique agriculture" - only sustainable kinds. This would involve surrendering 1/3 of that land to nature. Productivity of the remainder would increase by 50%, double, more - who knows. The important point is that the asset base of soil would improve and increase - instead of being 'mined' and eroded, as now, and the hydrological cycle would be reinstated. Global Heat problems solved. You could even have a portion of intensive animal rearing - in fully sustainable built facilities - renewable powered, methane, compost, and water harvesting, trigeneration, located appropriately ..... simple really.

All of this does require forsaking worshipping the almighty $ though. Why worship a ponzi scheme when you could worship the soil that supports you, the air you breathe and the water you drink instead? Oh, look at that - CO2





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Old Sunday 5th January 2020, 07:12   #759
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
That NYT article was rather emotional and 'incendary' going for it's usual grab bag of disparate symptoms to try and prove CC. It doesn't.

Great Barrier Reef dying? - mostly agricultural chemicals in the run off.

Imagine if you will France and Germany (and probably a few other countries too!) concreted over and placed in the middle of Australia in 100°F temperatures - what do you think will happen to the temps once that air gets to Eastern Australia ?

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/sydney-s...-N-i0FzmLeIPvM

Attachment 714168

This pic for context - for even though it's a concrete jungle now - this is where it is sited - a river valley ...... the hottest place on earth ! ding ding !!

What if I told you the current conflagrations were due to repressed Aboriginal Sovereignty? or the feral Red Fox? or the proliferation of concrete guttering? all of which correlates nicely. Would that door to an open mind crack open just a tiny little bit?

First it may require even the remotest consideration that Western Science, Academic Rigor, The Scientific Method, etc, are just but the tiniest subset of all knowledge - wisdom so advanced that you would probably have to consider it magic ......

When that swiss cheese block of assumptions and error multiplied navel gazing modelling evolves to a point where it's open to far bigger boundaries I will revisit. In the interim all I can do is present the knowledge - whether it's given to me by 8ft tall ancient warriors that stroll through doorways into this world (from realms where waiving your Doctorate around is seen as no more impressive than a two year old banging building blocks together), trees that shimmy and shake and telepathically talk to me, or eagles whispering to me on the wind, or emergent 'science' ..... it's up to everyone else to open their eyes instead of blithely sailing on .... coz the current course heads rapidly towards a giant plug hole.

Btw - I've never advocated "boutique agriculture" - only sustainable kinds. This would involve surrendering 1/3 of that land to nature. Productivity of the remainder would increase by 50%, double, more - who knows. The important point is that the asset base of soil would improve and increase - instead of being 'mined' and eroded, as now, and the hydrological cycle would be reinstated. Global Heat problems solved. You could even have a portion of intensive animal rearing - in fully sustainable built facilities - renewable powered, methane, compost, and water harvesting, trigeneration, located appropriately ..... simple really.

All of this does require forsaking worshipping the almighty $ though. Why worship a ponzi scheme when you could worship the soil that supports you, the air you breathe and the water you drink instead? Oh, look at that - CO2
Wow, 8 ft-tall warriors, sorry I asked. . ..

“Boutique” in the sense that implementation of the agricultural methods you espouse is only practical in technologically advanced nations with stable or declining populations. And you’re wrong about “western science” which, when it comes to effecting real-world change in agriculture and other practical pursuits, is the only game in town. C’mon now, you know this. . ..
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Old Sunday 5th January 2020, 14:48   #760
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First it may require even the remotest consideration that Western Science, Academic Rigor, The Scientific Method, etc, are just but the tiniest subset of all knowledge - wisdom so advanced that you would probably have to consider it magic ......

When that swiss cheese block of assumptions and error multiplied navel gazing modelling evolves to a point where it's open to far bigger boundaries I will revisit. In the interim all I can do is present the knowledge - whether it's given to me by 8ft tall ancient warriors that stroll through doorways into this world (from realms where waiving your Doctorate around is seen as no more impressive than a two year old banging building blocks together), trees that shimmy and shake and telepathically talk to me, or eagles whispering to me on the wind, or emergent 'science' ..... it's up to everyone else to open their eyes instead of blithely sailing on .... coz the current course heads rapidly towards a giant plug hole.
So, we're down to "magic" now? So you're the anti-Purple Heron?

Chosun, I have found your posts very fascinating, and even enjoy the pseudo-religious leanings (as I lean that way myself), but this really changes the conversation to a degree that the conversation itself can't be had.

Science has it's issues, and good science freely admits it doesn't know everything, but without the science, such as it is, we couldn't even all have a common ground to speak from; each being entrenched in our own psyche.

As for the comment about "boutique agriculture," it really is. I agree "doing it in a way that is less harmful to the Earth" is a good thing, it has been pretty well proven it would take alot more land-per-human to do it correctly; heck even intuitively that's easy to see.

An example, watched an interesting video that walked through whether "organic" vs. "non-organic" farming methods were better than the other. Came out a tiny, tiny net in favor of organic, but overall is a net draw. The organic farming is better for the planet in theory, but production of it to meet demand has meant companies are producing it in ways that cause just as much harm in other ways. Was very sobering.

(And also takes me back to "we just need less people"...an always uncomfortable discussion. One also could argue science got us into this environmental mess via technology...)

If you're gonna ditch the science altogether, then that doesn't leave room for discussion, only proselytizing. I gave up that game a long time ago; that brick wall hurts.
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Old Monday 6th January 2020, 00:58   #761
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So, we're down to "magic" now? So you're the anti-Purple Heron?

Chosun, I have found your posts very fascinating, and even enjoy the pseudo-religious leanings (as I lean that way myself), but this really changes the conversation to a degree that the conversation itself can't be had.

Science has it's issues, and good science freely admits it doesn't know everything, but without the science, such as it is, we couldn't even all have a common ground to speak from; each being entrenched in our own psyche.

As for the comment about "boutique agriculture," it really is. I agree "doing it in a way that is less harmful to the Earth" is a good thing, it has been pretty well proven it would take alot more land-per-human to do it correctly; heck even intuitively that's easy to see.

An example, watched an interesting video that walked through whether "organic" vs. "non-organic" farming methods were better than the other. Came out a tiny, tiny net in favor of organic, but overall is a net draw. The organic farming is better for the planet in theory, but production of it to meet demand has meant companies are producing it in ways that cause just as much harm in other ways. Was very sobering.

(And also takes me back to "we just need less people"...an always uncomfortable discussion. One also could argue science got us into this environmental mess via technology...)

If you're gonna ditch the science altogether, then that doesn't leave room for discussion, only proselytizing. I gave up that game a long time ago; that brick wall hurts.
I think by trying to frame infinite nature from a finite position you may have read things into it that just aren't there. Religion is one step too far removed for my liking - I like my light direct. Perhaps even your concept of magic needs some finessing? 'Magic' doesn't displace 'science' - magic contains science. Known science is but a mere subset of all that is - there are other ways of knowing (or being) what is as yet unknown

Think of it this way:-
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".
Or, (Gehm's corollary) - "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced".

As I have explained above and before - there's too many pyramids of assumptions built into the science on this issue for me to place any credence in it. I read through the opening pages of the literature - but couldn't get past all those assumptions - it made my head hurt ! I don't care if 97% of scientists do agree. There would have been a time when 97% of scientists agreed on 'ether' as well ..... thank goodness 3% of scientists put that airy-fairy notion to bed.

When standing in the shade of an old growth woodland by an ephemeral wetland with fully functioning hydrology (I did manage to restore a relatively small ~100's of acres area to that condition, the type that we've 99% destroyed), I've measured temperatures fully 20°C lower than the surrounding air, I've measure Carbon content in the soil 4, 8x or more that of the surrounding area, I've made rain fall whereas on surrounding areas it evaporates before it hits the ground, I've measured biodiversity that has exploded compared to the sterilized 'deserts' around it. I've seen water flow in the harshest of droughts. Thus I care not for 0.7°C or so of average temperature rise.

Your the 2nd person to misconstrue "boutique agriculture" so perhaps I will detail that more prescriptively in the appropriate thread. It absolutely can work - win - win - win. I would even support 'factory farming' animals appropriately - ie. with vastly vastly improved animal welfare, appropriately located (by necessity such a density of living being generated heat necessitates being in a cooler climate. It is also madness to locate them on arable or even grazing land), and with fully self-sufficient (energy/ heat, soil producing even) purpose designed facilities. All of this is so simple that only the inhumane pursuit of the almighty $ gets in the road.

What concerns me with the Climate Change 'religion' is that it does nothing to address the real causes of our issues.

Eventually too we must also address the sheer numbers of people if only for the sheer square footage (some sayings just don't translate into metric well ! :) of concrete that each demands. We either need to adjust the way we live - kilometres high self-sufficient crystal skyscrapers ...... or adjust the number of people. One only needs to peruse the comments sections of any Mars Colonization articles/ proposals to realize that inter-nation, inter-peoples, inter-species, and inter-generational equity is still a distant dream ...... it seems stoopid people do a lot of breeding !




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Old Monday 6th January 2020, 20:56   #762
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. . .Eventually too we must also address the sheer numbers of people. . .
Not “eventually” or even “concurrently” but “preliminarily”, such is the scope of the problem given the imminence of catastrophic global warming which is happening whether you believe in it or not. So by all means put you ideas into practice on whatever small scale you can manage. They’re hardly original and others have been doing so for years. in the States, for example, organic farms catering to the upscale restaurant trade are everywhere but no sensible person considers them the “solution” to anything much. For that, what’s needed is concerted political action on the regional, national and international levels not virtue-signaling and moral narcissism.

Last edited by fugl : Tuesday 7th January 2020 at 01:54. Reason: typos
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Old Tuesday 7th January 2020, 01:52   #763
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..... no sensible person considers them the “solution” to anything much. For that, what’s needed is concerted political action not virtue-signaling and moral narcissism.
Then perhaps those "sensible" people really need to consider how 'wise' they are .... I really don't see what is so difficult to understand - the math is exceedingly simple: 0.67 x (>1.5) = >1 , and that's to say nothing of the gains to the resource 'asset base' and advantageous global effects ..... win-win-win-win-win-win.
If anything, such actions reduce arguments of "virtue-signalling and moral narcissism" to mere political pontification .....

Perhaps instead of yet another taxation regime what you really need is regime change ....... perhaps instead of "concerted political action" what you really need is an end to politics .....

It must be a really bitter pill to swallow for Indigenous wisdom and governance to be the answer for 'superior', 'advanced' societies .... but there you go - best take the 'medicine' sooner rather than later lest Mother keep slappin' y'all up the side of the head !

An interesting article which I'm sure can be misinterpreted by the blinkered nonetheless ..... "Moral Narcissism and the Least-Great Generation"
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/a...at-generation/





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Old Tuesday 7th January 2020, 02:53   #764
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Then perhaps those "sensible" people really need to consider how 'wise' they are .... I really don't see what is so difficult to understand - the math is exceedingly simple: 0.67 x (>1.5) = >1 , and that's to say nothing of the gains to the resource 'asset base' and advantageous global effects ..... win-win-win-win-win-win.
If anything, such actions reduce arguments of "virtue-signalling and moral narcissism" to mere political pontification .....

Perhaps instead of yet another taxation regime what you really need is regime change ....... perhaps instead of "concerted political action" what you really need is an end to politics .....

It must be a really bitter pill to swallow for Indigenous wisdom and governance to be the answer for 'superior', 'advanced' societies .... but there you go - best take the 'medicine' sooner rather than later lest Mother keep slappin' y'all up the side of the head !

An interesting article which I'm sure can be misinterpreted by the blinkered nonetheless ..... "Moral Narcissism and the Least-Great Generation"
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/a...at-generation/
Ah, back to the Philosopher King, I see, and the supposed “wisdom” of the Australian Aborigine (though to be fair you’ve consistently touted that particular piece of nonsense).

“Apolitical” regimes always go bad in the end, you know, however noble their beginnings. “Politics” (in their modern democratic republican form as in all others) are inevitably messy and inefficient because people are messy and inefficient but, as Aristotle pointed out long ago, they’re by far the safest bet given the infinite corruptibility of human nature.

Well, well, well, round and round we go, merrily, merrily, merrily. . ..
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Old Tuesday 7th January 2020, 06:16   #765
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Ah, back to the Philosopher King, I see, and the supposed “wisdom” of the Australian Aborigine (though to be fair you’ve consistently touted that particular piece of nonsense).

“Apolitical” regimes always go bad in the end, you know, however noble their beginnings. “Politics” (in their modern democratic republican form as in all others) are inevitably messy and inefficient because people are messy and inefficient but, as Aristotle pointed out long ago, they’re by far the safest bet given the infinite corruptibility of human nature.

Well, well, well, round and round we go, merrily, merrily, merrily. . ..
#Ifyouknowyouknow ...... nothing 'supposed' about it :)

I imagine the 'modern' world's Quantum Mechanics science will catch up eventually ..... until then perhaps some doors best remain hidden ....

You guys are hardly acing governance up to this point ..... can't say that I understand the objections to a faster Ferrari, a better mousetrap, or a bigger picture, but, oh well - best of luck :)




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Old Tuesday 28th January 2020, 13:13   #766
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There's a good article, lengthy, informative and quite detailed, on the BBC News website on researching changes in the Antarctic's Thwaites Glacier:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51097309

The outcome is likely, sooner or later, to have severe effects on conservation aims in many parts of the world.
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Old Wednesday 29th January 2020, 22:05   #767
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AGW & the Australian brush fires—

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weath...d-warmth-2019/
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Old Wednesday 29th January 2020, 23:33   #768
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AGW & the Australian brush fires—

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weath...d-warmth-2019/
WaPo conveniently forgot to mention all the water drained out of existence for profit, and the idjuts that lit a lot of the fires.

I'm surprised as 'serious' climate reporters that they didn't mention the IOD which is at record levels ......





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Old Wednesday 29th January 2020, 23:42   #769
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...hange-america/

Refreshing ..... "Scientists do not completely understand .... "





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Old Thursday 30th January 2020, 02:34   #770
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WaPo conveniently forgot to mention all the water drained out of existence for profit, and the idjuts that lit a lot of the fires.

I'm surprised as 'serious' climate reporters that they didn't mention the IOD which is at record levels ....
Why should it be mentioned? The water's long gone and idiots are always lighting fires, What's new are the effects of AGW.

IOD, what's that?

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...hange-america/

Refreshing ..... [i]"Scientists do not completely understand ....
Of course not, incomplete understanding is a hallmark of good science as opposed to (for example) the certainties of traditional "wisdom" in all its cocksure banality.

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Old Thursday 30th January 2020, 09:00   #771
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Originally Posted by fugl View Post
Why should it be mentioned? The water's long gone and idiots are always lighting fires, What's new are the effects of AGW.

IOD, what's that?
The effects of the drained water have not been studied - I could tell you what traditional wisdom holds but wouldn't want to risk boring you !

IOD = Indian Ocean Dipole (the first Google results to come up)
..... potentially a modeler's wet dream .....
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/iod/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_Dipole

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Originally Posted by fugl View Post
Of course not, incomplete understanding is a hallmark of good science as opposed to (for example) the certainties of traditional "wisdom" in all its cocksure banality.
I'd have thought that the true scientist would be verily salivating at the prospects of uncovering the secrets of 'magic'





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Old Thursday 30th January 2020, 17:37   #772
fugl
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
The effects of the drained water have not been studied - I could tell you what traditional wisdom holds but wouldn't want to risk boring you !
C’mon, why not give it a shot? Might give me a laugh but pretty sure I wouldn’t be bored. At least—and this is an important caveat—if it’s not too wordy!

Last edited by fugl : Thursday 30th January 2020 at 19:21.
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Old Saturday 1st February 2020, 17:49   #773
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Averages are meaningless. If 100 person make $20,000 dollars a year and the hedge fund manager makes 10,000,000 a year the average income of $118,000 does not provide a realistic picture of income distribution. Same applies to averages in terms of sea level changes and anyone who has traveled at all should be aware of variations.

The countries around the equator will have a higher rise and then there are the minor cities that are in danger of inundation such as London, New York, and Miami to name but a few.

Does anyone really trust the corporate media that is controlled by billionaires to provide an honest and complete picture of anything? The elites can choose where to have their homes and where to park their yachts and jets so rising seas will not affect them in the slightest.
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Old Saturday 8th February 2020, 22:16   #774
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Antarctica burns—

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/08/c...e=articleShare

Must be all that lowering of the water table by the European colonists. . ..
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Old Sunday 9th February 2020, 14:41   #775
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Dear all,

Did you notice that this thread is 4 years old? Did you notice any rise of sea level since that time? It should be easy to see on any port construction in any coastal city. Then multiply it by 2,5 and you will have sea level rise until 2030. Multiply it by 8 and you will have a sea rise until 2050. Multiply it by 20 and you will have a sea level rise until 2100. Then go back to predictions from few years ago, how much should sea level rise until 2030, 2050 or 2100.

I did not notice any sea level rise.

I also notice that journals and newspapers went quiet about sea level rise at the time when it should be catastrophic.
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