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Reproofing Jackets..... (1 Viewer)

Big Phil

Well-known member
There is an interesting article in 'Trail' this month comparing reproofing treatments for Goretex type jackets.

To their surprise Comfort Pure Concentrate was as water repellent as any of the expensive dedicated treatments (such as Nikwax TX Direct) and costs 6.2p per treatment compared to c. £3.00 for any of the dedicated treatments.

Also their tests (run by Leeds University) reveal that even the most expensive treatments need renewing every 50 miles if you walk with a rucksack due to abrasion. Again comfort lasted as long as Nikwax TX Direct at c. 30 miles.

Kind of confirms the rip-off factor involved with all aspects of the outdoor equipment market. I'll be experimenting with comfort.....
 
Big Phil said:
There is an interesting article in 'Trail' this month comparing reproofing treatments for Goretex type jackets.

To their surprise Comfort Pure Concentrate was as water repellent as any of the expensive dedicated treatments (such as Nikwax TX Direct) and costs 6.2p per treatment compared to c. £3.00 for any of the dedicated treatments.

Also their tests (run by Leeds University) reveal that even the most expensive treatments need renewing every 50 miles if you walk with a rucksack due to abrasion. Again comfort lasted as long as Nikwax TX Direct at c. 30 miles.

Kind of confirms the rip-off factor involved with all aspects of the outdoor equipment market. I'll be experimenting with comfort.....

I've read a bit on fabric conditioner and was always aware of it's 'proofing' properties (don't wash towels with it).
I might try it someday but as yet I've not had much need - my six year old Helly hanson (worn with rucksack) is still keeping out the heaviest downpours, I've used Nikwax to proof gloves, hats, fleeces, coats and found you can make it go a long way - in a washing maching it will proof as much as you can load in the drum - in a bucket it will proof as much as you can be bothered to keep putting in it.
I don't quite get the 30-50 miles - on my hols I walked that in a week and the 6 year old HH is still waterproof.

A problem with re-proofing by washing-in is that you are waterproofing 'everything' including the inside of coats which may contain meshes etc which are designed to pick up perspiration - you can end up with water beading inside the coat.
 
Big Phil said:
There is an interesting article in 'Trail' this month comparing reproofing treatments for Goretex type jackets....QUOTE]

Sorry, maybe I've missed the point but aren't 'Goretex' fabrics supposed to be breathable and if you use 'proofing' agents they loose that ability? You would basically then end up with the old type "100% Waterproof"?
 
Mynydd Merlin said:
Sorry, maybe I've missed the point but aren't 'Goretex' fabrics supposed to be breathable and if you use 'proofing' agents they loose that ability? You would basically then end up with the old type "100% Waterproof"?

Yup you have!. Goretex comes with a so-called Durable Water Repellent (DWR) applied which stops the ouer layer 'wetting out'. Wetting out stops your garment breathing so you get wet from perpsiration and decreases the insulating capability too. This DWR needs reapplying once it wears out, the rate of which is increased by abrasion from rucksack shoulder straps etc.....
 
Sorry Phil,

I know about the Goretex technology. Maybe I did not phrase my question so well. I was refering to Chris's post about using Fabric conditioners as a "Re-Proofing" agent. Figured it was probably not a good idea since it may interfere with that anti-wetting property.

Regards
 
Fabric conditioners, like "proper" reproofers, are hydrophobic - they drive water off fabric surfaces - which is why they're advertised as being able to make washing dry more quickly.

So while they might not be as long lasting as Nikwax TX Direct, I can seem them having a similar effect.

Personally I don't like wash-in treatments myself, so I'll stick to the spray-on versions - though maybe I could make them last longer by adding a bit of Comfort!

;)
 
Keith Reeder said:
Fabric conditioners, like "proper" reproofers, are hydrophobic - they drive water off fabric surfaces - which is why they're advertised as being able to make washing dry more quickly.

So while they might not be as long lasting as Nikwax TX Direct, I can seem them having a similar effect.

Personally I don't like wash-in treatments myself, so I'll stick to the spray-on versions - though maybe I could make them last longer by adding a bit of Comfort!

;)

Thanks for the clarification Keith - wasn't aware of the hydrophobic nature of fabric conditioners. I have used Nikwax TX spray myself a couple of times on my Lowe Alpine jackets and it works a treat, although i don't put them through the rigours I used to!
 
It took me quite a while to figure fabric conditioners out, Colin - I've seen loads of adverts saying that they'll make your clothes dry more quickly, but it was ages before the penny dropped as to why that might be.

I think they're based on a silicone polymer, which is both water repellant and tenacious (possibly too tenacious, because once it has been on something, you'll never get if off completely).

I think you might have a point about them interfering with breathability - the instructions on most Goretex-type kit specifically warns not to use fabric conditioners as part of your care for the garment, and if you Google "fabric conditioners + waterproofing" you'll find many pages saying "don't do it".
 
COMFORT FABRIC CONDITIONER versus NIKWAX Direct wash in reproofing

Big Phil said:
There is an interesting article in 'Trail' this month comparing reproofing treatments for Goretex type jackets.

To their surprise Comfort Pure Concentrate was as water repellent as any of the expensive dedicated treatments (such as Nikwax TX Direct) and costs 6.2p per treatment compared to c. £3.00 for any of the dedicated treatments.

Also their tests (run by Leeds University) reveal that even the most expensive treatments need renewing every 50 miles if you walk with a rucksack due to abrasion. Again comfort lasted as long as Nikwax TX Direct at c. 30 miles.

Kind of confirms the rip-off factor involved with all aspects of the outdoor equipment market. I'll be experimenting with comfort.....

I've been advised (and are people out there that concerned about the ethics...... - cost versus environmental impact) that Comfort fabric conditioner is loaded with CFCs.....fluro carbons? that are in general very damaging for the environment.

Given that the majority of us humans are being made aware of "Fair Trade" products, higher taxes on polluting emissions, recycling waste etc should we also take this into account when purchasing outdoor clothing and their associated after care products which sadly do cost more. Personally I don't think that its a case of "rip-off" industries but moreso that good quality products with a degree of sensitive thinking behind their items actually incur higher costs in materials, manufacturing and after sales. How ethical are you - do you care enough to pay a bit more? I know that most UK birders would think twice about their actions and behaviour if they thought their day to day actions were harming habitats or any part of our precious eco-system :storm:
 
PYRTLE said:
I've been advised (and are people out there that concerned about the ethics...... - cost versus environmental impact) that Comfort fabric conditioner is loaded with CFCs.....fluro carbons? that are in general very damaging for the environment.

Given that the majority of us humans are being made aware of "Fair Trade" products, higher taxes on polluting emissions, recycling waste etc should we also take this into account when purchasing outdoor clothing and their associated after care products which sadly do cost more. Personally I don't think that its a case of "rip-off" industries but moreso that good quality products with a degree of sensitive thinking behind their items actually incur higher costs in materials, manufacturing and after sales. How ethical are you - do you care enough to pay a bit more? I know that most UK birders would think twice about their actions and behaviour if they thought their day to day actions were harming habitats or any part of our precious eco-system :storm:

According to article comfort is based on silicone not fluorocarbons.
But most of the dedicated proofers they compared were based on fluorocarbons (with a couple of honourable exceptions), as is the initial DWR applied by the fabric manufacturer in the factory.......
 
Of the commercial re-proofers Nikwax appear to be the most environmentally committed. Certainly the manufacturer applied DWR is generally fluorocarbon based (except with Paramo). I'm not aware of any major concerns over fabric conditioner (other than the waste generated through the bottles), but that's not so say there isn't any.
 
Keith Reeder said:
It took me quite a while to figure fabric conditioners out, Colin - I've seen loads of adverts saying that they'll make your clothes dry more quickly, but it was ages before the penny dropped as to why that might be.

I think they're based on a silicone polymer, which is both water repellant and tenacious (possibly too tenacious, because once it has been on something, you'll never get if off completely).

I think you might have a point about them interfering with breathability - the instructions on most Goretex-type kit specifically warns not to use fabric conditioners as part of your care for the garment, and if you Google "fabric conditioners + waterproofing" you'll find many pages saying "don't do it".


I have just experimented with this, using Comfort Pure as per the Trail article on my Berghaus Goretex jacket. Using my own "beading" test i.e. spraying with a Hozelok garden spray, I have concluded that it has little effect in improving waterproofing on the back section where my rucksack had worn away the factory waterproofing. On the other hand the regions where the waterproofing was intact before washing have remained so. So, no harm done, but not much good either.
 
In my own experience as soon as you wash or reproof a garment it is never the same as when new, maybe we are all conned into thinking we are doing good by reproofing and after a while we fork out on another jacket helping the wheel of commerce go around. personally i would not use a fancy smelling conditioner on my gear, a fox would smell you a mile away and so would some funny birdwatchers
 
How I was lead to believe it is, that any of the newer technical fabrics such as GoreTex are membranes with breathable pores. Fabrics like GoreTex become non-waterproof when they are dirty, the dirt clogs the pore and acts as a conduit for the moisture hence you get wet. Washing the jacket, in ordinary powder without conditioner, will clean it and leave the Goretex in it's original waterproof condition. The only problem with this, as so many of you have said, is that the outer shell protecting the membrane is now no longer waterproof. I find a spray/brush on waterproofer such as Granger's Fabsil solves this problem, it's a long process but sometimes you have to work hard to save a bit of cash.
 
Rather than washing the garment in Comfort how about spraying the Comfort on? What effect would this have? All you need to do is pour some Comfort into a small half litre? spray and dilute it or maybe spray it on neat?
 
Johnny1 said:
Rather than washing the garment in Comfort how about spraying the Comfort on? What effect would this have? All you need to do is pour some Comfort into a small half litre? spray and dilute it or maybe spray it on neat?


You want to read OutDoorsMagic article about fabric conditioner.
Also consider a spraying on a dilute solution of PVA which is exactly what Nikwax looks like ;)
 
All I can add is that Regatta specifically say DO NOT use fabric conditioner on their isotex X-ert waterproof trousers, but a waterproof spray

B
 
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