Zoom H4n and kit (1 Viewer)

Here is what I have coming for indoor sound recording applications.


Anybody have any suggestions on using this setup for outdoor nature sounds?


...Bob
Kentucky

BobinKy said:

Here is what I have coming for indoor sound recording applications.

Zoom H4n Handy Audio Digital Recorder

http:/Rode NT 5 Small Diaphragm Condenser Mic

Rode NT45-O Omni Capsule, for that "In the Room" Sound

120 feet of LXR cable
​

Anybody have any suggestions on using this setup for outdoor nature sounds?


...Bob
Kentucky

Click to expand...

Bob,

I would suggest you send the Rode NT 5 - NT45O mics back unless you have a good need for them for indoor recordings...

Outdoor Nature Sounds come in great variety and type... I personally have settled on using the Sennheiser ME/K6 series microphones...

I also have a set of the Rode NT5 with the NT-45 O caps which work for outdoor ambient sound recording however the all time microphone winners for wildlife recording are the ME/K6 series in my book... They are a lot less temperamental than the NT 5 mics. If you read the Rode NT 5 manual, you will see where Rode recommends keeping the NT 5 mics in a plastic bag with desiccant when not in use... This is because the NT 5 mic is sensitive to humidity and moisture which can greatly debilitate its usability outdoors unless you live in a really dry climate or like the sound of popping corn in your recordings...

Frankly, the Sennheiser ME62, ME64, or ME66 with the K6 power module is far more dependable. I often have ME/K6 mics set up outdoors for weeks, even months on occasion at a time recording with an automated recording system I use and I haven't had a problem with a ME/K6 microphone yet...

Or if you are looking for those far out critters or birds, the ME67/K6 is a great mic, a bit long, but works great...

I think for outdoor use, my all time favorite mics is a pair of Sennheiser ME66/K6 shotgun mics...

Nice thing about the ME/K6 series microphones, they are high gain/high output low self noise mics and offset the lower than normal gain of the H4n mic preamps... And, by using the K6 internal preamp/driver/battery, you get more battery life in the H4n by not having to use the 48 volt mic power as the ME/K6 has its own AA battery for power... Its a win-win situation... Much better to replace the AA Alkaline battery in the microphone every 6 months than to be replacing your H4n batteries every 2 hours of use... To me, that is a major issue with any mics that require 48 volts from the recorder as the NT 5 mics do...

All you need to do is figure out how much directionality you want from your setup. The ME62 is an omni mic like the NT45O, the ME64 is a cardioid similar to the NT 5, the ME66 is a super cardioid with a sharper acceptance angle than the ME64, and the ME67 is a Hyper Cardioid long shotgun with an even narrower acceptance angle. Combine high gain with low self noise and a narrower acceptance angle and you get greater usable range...

I often run a mic array of 4 or 6 of the ME series microphones. If you want to hear some of what they are capable of, these links will take you to some of my recordings:

http://www.4shared.com/dir/G5hD0gQS/Coyotes_and_other_mamals.html

http://www.4shared.com/audio/8Ho9npeU/E_ScrOwl01.html

http://www.4shared.com/audio/9izY-Ba6/E_ScrOwl02.html

As to how to use the setup, explain what you want to do with it and then ask questions works best...

Good Luck with wildlife recording, and enjoy, its a lot of fun...

Mitch...

Thank you for such a detailed response.

First, let me say your sound recordings of coyotes and birds are so real. As I listened to your sound files, I was there--the quality is WOW! WOW! WOW!

Second, thank you for the word of caution on using the Rode NT-5 for outdoor recording. Here in Kentucky, the humidity is wet.

Next, thank you for the suggestion of the Sennheiser ME/K6 series microphones. Others have recommended shotgun mics. However, I do not have the budget for such an array as you have set up.

The Zoom H4n and Rode NT-5 are primarily for field interviews in oral history (genealogy), where the setting will be living rooms, porches, family reunions, libraries, and history centers. My first preference was for the Marantz 661 recorder. However, this is a joint venture and the others preferred the handy size of the Zoom H4n. The Rode NT-5 was recommended for oral history because of the switchable caps. Some interviews will be one-on-one, others will be with family members in a living room or front porch environment. So, I am pretty much stuck with the the Zoom H4n and Rote NT-5 equipment--at least for now.

However, can you recommend an outdoor set up with the Zoom H4n for recording birds?

One of my favorite places to bird watch is a fish farm -- Frankfort Fish Hatchery. They have 45 breeding ponds and the place is a haven for water fowl and raptors.

However, I also want to record along a few trails to capture sounds of warblers. I envision taking the equipment and setting up and retreating a 100 ft away and record for a couple of hours from some kind of portable blind: Carry-Lite Umbrella Blind or Ameristep G10 Ground Blind.

I would love to have the setup you have there at Cape Cod, however, I do not have the budget or access to wooded areas for extended periods of time.

By the way, many years ago I took my family camping at Nickerson State Park (5 days). The site you have access to is perfect!!!

So, what can you recommend for me down here in Kentucky? You know what I have coming. I can perhaps swing a shotgun mic in the $300 range (tops) for this coming spring.

...Bob
Kentucky

BobinKy said:

So, what can you recommend for me down here in Kentucky? You know what I have coming. I can perhaps swing a shotgun mic in the $300 range (tops) for this coming spring.

Click to expand...

I would highly recommend that you get a Sennheiser ME66/K6 microphone. If price is an issue, I realize this may be a bit above your budget, ($460 at Adorama) however my trials of finding the right microphone from a practical standpoint causes me to caution that anything less than this microphone will be a disappointment with the H4n... If you research the auctions on Ebay, you should be able to purchase a good used one in like new condition for $200-$300 dollars... I have bought the ME66/K6 on Ebay with great success... Do an Ebay search for Sennheiser ME66/K6

You will also need a mic cable and I buy all my microphone cables from AJ Petersen at Sweetwater.com as he sells Pro Co cables which have a lifetime warrantee. A 5 foot Pro Co XLR cable with shipping is $16.79:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XLR5/

AJ knows his business and is very good at answering any questions you may have. Tell him I sent you... (That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee maybe!!!)

Here are links with info about how I use a ME66 or ME67 mic for bird sounds recording that may help:
http://www.4shared.com/dir/0XHCDPww/ME66__Handgrip.html

http://www.4shared.com/dir/OHrytNg0/ME67_Handgrip.html

Mitch...

Thank you for your helpful suggestions.

One last question--for now |<|

Have you ever recorded with the Zoom H4n?

I still have time to change recorders, but I have to go with something about the size of the Zoom H4n. I thought about the Sony PCM D50, Sony PCM-M10, and Olympus LS-11. I have read good things about these units, but I like the 4-track capability of the Zoom H4n.

I would appreciate any more suggestions you care to pass my way.

Thanks.

...Bob
Kentucky

BobinKy said:

Mitch...

Thank you for your helpful suggestions.

One last question--for now |<|

Have you ever recorded with the Zoom H4n?

I still have time to change recorders, but I have to go with something about the size of the Zoom H4n. I thought about the Sony PCM D50, Sony PCM-M10, and Olympus LS-11. I have read good things about these units, but I like the 4-track capability of the Zoom H4n.

I would appreciate any more suggestions you care to pass my way.

Thanks.

...Bob
Kentucky

Click to expand...

Hi Bob,

Have I ever recorded with the Zoom H4n?

Yes...

I purchased one a year ago, tested it and returned it...

Its not a bad recorder in my estimation, has a number of good features, seems well made but I didn't have it long enough to "life" test it beyond two weeks...

Why I returned it... Low mic preamp gain with some noise, no line inputs contrary to H4n specifications and manual, and I found the 4 track as advertised not to be true 4 channel operation by my definition.

Ok, so once I had the H4n in hand and started using it, talking with the distributor I had purchased it from about how to use it as a 4 track with external mics, I purchased a Sound Devices MixPre preamp so I would have four usable tracks.

Ok, the preamp shows up and i call the distributor back, I can't figure out how to interface the preamp with the H4n.

Turns out, you have to unplug the mics you are using from the mic inputs in order to plug in the preamp as the line inputs are the mic inputs!!! You can have one or the other but you can not have both!!! So much for 4 track recording, it seems the H4n 4 track recording ONLY works with the internal microphones as two of the four tracks...

And then I find the "line inputs" are not the industry standard 1 volt, you have to build resistor dividing networks into your preamp interface cables as what the makers of the H4n have done, is parallel the mic inputs with the line inputs and they both go through the mic preamps and when all is said and done, you have extreme high gain and distortion and noise with a 1 volt line input signal!!!

The H4n line input is a real hokey set up and the distributor took it back...

I then tried a Tascam DR680, advertised to be an 8 track recorder. In truth it is a 6 track with two additional tracks that can be generated by an internal stereo mix...

The Tascam DR680 worked as expected, it would have been the ideal recorder for my needs with multiple microphone arrays however, the DR680 had firmware bugs and put little dead spots all through my recordings.. Tascam replaced the first one with a second that did the same and I found myself beta testing the DR680 firmware revisions for Tascam who kept sending me modified firmware to upload into it and after a couple months of this I returned the DR680 as I was spending too much time working for Tascam beta testing instead of working on my project!

What I ended up with is two recorders that work as I expect of them... An Olympus LS-11 that I use in the field with the hand held ME66 or ME67 mics, and a Marantz PMD-661 for use with the large microphone arrays...

At present, I know of no true multitrack recorder of 4 tracks or more that works as I would expect for a 4 or more track recorder unless you are willing to spend at least $4000 - $12,000 for a recorder...

My solution to needing to interface the 4 to 8 microphones of my mic array was to use mixers with multiple mic preamps built in. I use two Sound Devices "302" 3 channel MixPre and one two channel MixPre for a total of 8 channels/microphones.

The reason for using these particular SD preamps is that the internal stereo bus of these SD units can be daisy-chained with a short coaxial cable jumper and the output is a two track stereo mix to be fed into the Marantz PMD661 recorder... And the whole setup can be battery operated in the field as each unit has internal holders for AA cells. It makes about as simple and clean a setup as is possible as I see it... Its not true multitrack recording however has proven to work well for my needs...

But this is way more than what you are looking for... I only explain this so you can understand why I have ended up with the recorders I presently use...

I have been using an Olympus LS-11 for hand carry field use since the LS-11 came on the market, and I love it, it is a solid, very reliable 2 track recorder and has low noise high gain mic preamps. The only drawback to the LS-11 might be the fact it does not have internal 48 volt phantom power for microphones and you would need to have an external power supply for use with the Rode NT5 mics... But this is where the Sennheiser ME/K6 microphones really shine due to their internal battery power in the K6 module. The LS-11 and the ME/K6 mics is a marriage made in heaven... That and Sanyo Eneloop NiMh batteries for the recorder...

And, The Olympus LS-11 does have true line inputs which I have tested with the SD preamp stack and know it will work as a backup recorder for the large mic array if I ever need it... There is no difference in the recording quality between the PMD661 and the LS11 that I can discern...

The Olympus LS-11 is a rugged first class device that I have no qualms about recommending...

The Marantz PMD-661 is also an excellent recorder, it is what I use the most however it is physically larger, has a more complex operating system with more automated operating control features and is double the cost when you purchase it... If you do not need the advanced operating features of the PMD-661, then for half the cost, the LS-11 will work fine...

I have also considered the Sony PCM-M10 however I have a lot of digital gear, cameras as well as recorders, that all use SD memory cards and that the Sony PCM-M10 uses Sony Memory Sticks not SDHC cards steered me away from considering it. I have two Sony DCM-S40 point and shoot cameras and finding the memory sticks for them can be a hassle as compared to the very plentiful SD memory cards which can be purchased just about anywhere... So I ruled the Sony PCM recorders out of my choices for that simple reason...

I think for your situation, the Olympus LS-11 with ME/K6 microphones is the best choice...

And then its a matter of getting the right Hosa Technology microphone cable from AJ at Sweetwater.com once you decide what you are going to do...

Extremely useful Mitch, thank you!

Hi Nigel,

Thanks for the comment...

From one Nikon User to another, I like your moniker!

Mitch...

Thank you again for your detailed response. I will let you know how it turns out.

...Bob
Kentucky

The Zoom H4n and Rode NT-55 mic arrived today by fed-x. Initial response after setup on dining room table--WOW! The sound quality of this little guy is something else. There are lots of menus. I guess the Zoom Handy Recorder has potential.

We have 30 days for evaluation.

...Bob
Kentucky

Now that I have the basic recording package for a live location studio, I packed up the equipment and did a home interview at a friend's house. This is my first field test. Although it was not really a field test, since I was in my friend's living room. Halfway through the interview, my friend gave me an opportunity to record a four-footed subject--his cat. Reproduced the sound of MacQuire pretty well.

After the interview I went back home and copied the file to my laptop, and made a couple of CDs for my friend and his sister.

There is so much about sound engineering that I do not know.

Does anyone have any suggestions for some Intro books or DVDs?

...Bob
Kentucky

BobinKy said:

Now that I have the basic recording package for a live location studio, I packed up the equipment and did a home interview at a friend's house. This is my first field test. Although it was not really a field test, since I was in my friend's living room. Halfway through the interview, my friend gave me an opportunity to record a four-footed subject--his cat. Reproduced the sound of MacQuire pretty well.

After the interview I went back home and copied the file to my laptop, and made a couple of CDs for my friend and his sister.

There is so much about sound engineering that I do not know.

Does anyone have any suggestions for some Intro books or DVDs?

...Bob
Kentucky

Click to expand...

Bob,
Great, glad to hear you have the gear and are getting started...

I do not know of any books or CD/DVD's to recommend, I would suggest you give AJ Petersen at Sweetwater.com a call... AJ is very helpful and has lots of good answers and would be the person most likely to have knowledge of books or disks that would help you...

(Just don't let him sell you ProTools!!!(I didn't say that!))

AJ Petersen can be reached at 800-222.4700 ext. 1348

I also recommend you get a copy of "Audacity" loaded onto your computer if you don't all ready have it.

Audacity is a shareware(freeware) audio editor with many neat and useful features... It does things like noise reduction, digital filtering, cut and paste editing of your recordings and allows you to combine recordings into a new file... Edits can be undone before you save them if you are not satisfied with what you have created...

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

They don't come much better than Audacity...

However, Its my opinion, the best way to learn is to get out and do it as you are doing and keep asking questions here on this forum... And you'll keep refining your process based on what you are looking for and what you are getting...

Good luck with it...

fmhill said:

Hi Bob,

Why I returned it... Low mic preamp gain with some noise, no line inputs contrary to H4n specifications and manual, and I found the 4 track as advertised not to be true 4 channel operation by my definition.

Ok, so once I had the H4n in hand and started using it, talking with the distributor I had purchased it from about how to use it as a 4 track with external mics, I purchased a Sound Devices MixPre preamp so I would have four usable tracks.

Ok, the preamp shows up and i call the distributor back, I can't figure out how to interface the preamp with the H4n.

Turns out, you have to unplug the mics you are using from the mic inputs in order to plug in the preamp as the line inputs are the mic inputs!!! You can have one or the other but you can not have both!!! So much for 4 track recording, it seems the H4n 4 track recording ONLY works with the internal microphones as two of the four tracks...

And then I find the "line inputs" are not the industry standard 1 volt, you have to build resistor dividing networks into your preamp interface cables as what the makers of the H4n have done, is parallel the mic inputs with the line inputs and they both go through the mic preamps and when all is said and done, you have extreme high gain and distortion and noise with a 1 volt line input signal!!! ...

Click to expand...

Hello Mitch,
You've contributed a lot to these threads and seem to have a lot of experience. I've been photographing birds for more years than I care to think of but have just recently gotten into recording bird songs to go along with video shot with the Canon 1DM4. Having read (so far) so many glowing reviews of the Zoom H4n I picked one up and have been toying with it for a while. I was thinking of getting a good shotgun mic to go with it and your glowing reports along with others of the Sennheiser ME66/K6. Then reading your reports of the less than stellar performance with the inputs etc was dismaying. Too late to return the recorder and am now wondering if I would be wasting time and more money getting a very good mic like the Sennheiser instead of a lesser quality mic. Any thoughts there outside of dumping this recorder and starting over? Oh, my main subjects would be typically singing birds in eastern forest habitat.

Thanks in advance.
Jim

JimZ said:

Hello Mitch,
You've contributed a lot to these threads and seem to have a lot of experience. I've been photographing birds for more years than I care to think of but have just recently gotten into recording bird songs to go along with video shot with the Canon 1DM4. Having read (so far) so many glowing reviews of the Zoom H4n I picked one up and have been toying with it for a while. I was thinking of getting a good shotgun mic to go with it and your glowing reports along with others of the Sennheiser ME66/K6. Then reading your reports of the less than stellar performance with the inputs etc was dismaying. Too late to return the recorder and am now wondering if I would be wasting time and more money getting a very good mic like the Sennheiser instead of a lesser quality mic. Any thoughts there outside of dumping this recorder and starting over? Oh, my main subjects would be typically singing birds in eastern forest habitat.

Thanks in advance.
Jim

Click to expand...

Hi Jim,

Boy, your practically a neighbor... CT is a beautiful state, you've got many great places for wildlife photography and recording... Many years ago I had a good friend who lived in Lakeville CT and I used to spend time out there.

As to the Zoom H4n, don't be too quick to give up on it, and yes, the ME66/K6 mic is the best mic to get to use on it...

What makes the H4n and the ME66/K6 mic a good combination is that the ME66/K6 is a low noise high output mic which compensates for the low gain mic preamps of the H4n...

I think you would be quite satisfied with this combination. In theory, with 50mv of output from the ME66/K6 mic you don't have to push the internal mic preamps of the H4n as hard and the noise is mostly an issue with low output mics when you have to crank the mic gain to maximum...

The H4n isn't a bad recorder, more that it isn't on a par with the better recorders available, however many use this recorder very successfully...

And with the ME66/K6, you use the mic's own internal AA cell battery and not the phantom power from the recorder so you triple battery life of the recorder by shutting the phantom power option off... 6 Hours or more is much better than 2 hours... And the ME66/K6 will run for months on a single AA cell...

Its a win/win combination...

My major issue with the H4n was its hokey approach to line level inputs... I could have lived with the mic preamps as my intended use was to record with a large microphone array with its own SD preamps however the SD preamps use a 1 volt line level output as is standard in the industry and in spite of the H4n manual and maker's advertised claims, it does NOT have line level inputs, basically they expect you to swamp the signal and it goes through the internal mic preamps... SO I didn't keep the H4n very long and replaced it with a Marantz PMD661 which is a recorder made for serious demanding use... The PMD661 does everything the H4n would not...

Realizing we each have different needs, the PMD661 was the right choice for me...

So get a ME66/K6 to use with your H4n, you'll be very happy with it and at some point if you upgrade recorders, the ME66/K6 is one mic you'll keep and use with what ever recorder you end up with...

Please keep me informed as to what you end up doing...

Great to hear from you,

Thanks for the quick and informational answer Mitch. I think I'll be giving this some serious thought. I already made the mistake of first getting an H2 and Rode Videomic that are great for some uses but for me they are just sitting around not getting used at all so I don't want to make too many more missteps along the way (although I'm sure I will). One more question if I might impose on you. I also read about you using at one point the Hosa XVM-105F Audio Cable which if I understand correctly converts an XLR output to a mini stereo phone input. If using the ME66/K6 how is the audio affected compared to using the Zoom's XLR input by comparison?

I can talk cameras and lenses all day but this audio is a whole new world to me so I hope this isn't too basic a question here.

Thanks again, Jim

JimZ said:

Thanks for the quick and informational answer Mitch. I think I'll be giving this some serious thought. I already made the mistake of first getting an H2 and Rode Videomic that are great for some uses but for me they are just sitting around not getting used at all so I don't want to make too many more missteps along the way (although I'm sure I will). One more question if I might impose on you. I also read about you using at one point the Hosa XVM-105F Audio Cable which if I understand correctly converts an XLR output to a mini stereo phone input. If using the ME66/K6 how is the audio affected compared to using the Zoom's XLR input by comparison?

I can talk cameras and lenses all day but this audio is a whole new world to me so I hope this isn't too basic a question here.

Thanks again, Jim

Click to expand...

Hi Jim,

Sorry not to answer your question right away, had a long afternoon dealing with a vendor's customer service people...

When using the ME/K6 microphones with a cable such as the Hosa XVM-105F with its unbalanced 3.5mm output connector, you give up about 3db of signal strength. However, with a high output microphone such as the ME/K6 series, its not something you'd notice. And then as the Hosa XVM cables are wired to put the mono microphone signal into both channels of the recorder, doing so more than makes up for any signal loss...

I do that with an Olympus LS-11 recorder and it works fine. However with the rest of my gear I use all XLR cables as they are of much higher quality and ruggedness and I run long cable runs...

But unless I told you what was recorded with which, you'd never know the difference...

As to talking cameras and lenses, I'm big into Nikon for both, have owned a great Canon A1 back in the 1970's but the choices at that time in lenses for Nikon F series was a deciding factor and I became a committed Nikon user and have been ever since...

Here's some photos done recently with a D300s and 135mm AI series Nikkor lens originally purchased for a Nikon F many years ago. The first 7 photos on this page are the Nikon, the rest were taken with a Panasonic FP8 with a Leica Vario-Elmar lens set to wide angle format that I am evaluating:

http://www.4shared.com/dir/be57g7LW/27_Feb_2011.html

Hi Mitch,
Thanks once again. It is very kind of you to share you knowledge.|=)|
I have visited the Cape many times over the years... mostly in the "off season" when things are quieter and always enjoy my time there. Well under 3 hours to the bridge from my home.

Well, it looks like the Sennheiser is for me. One comment you made about that cable being able to record to two channels.... I'm wondering if that can be done using the xlr connector as well with some settings on the H4n with that being the better connector. Have to go through the manual on that. If possible, that would seem the best of both worlds at least with that setup. I believe that you can hook up two mics plus use the 2 built in mics at one time. I know with my Rode Videomic plugged into the mini jack input, I cannot use both the built in mics and that at the same time. Maybe something like this?
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/285654.html

Lots of learning to do and have to get cracking. The sounds of spring are all around us already and it will be time to be in the field as much as possible very soon! I'm seeing patches of grass through the snow now.

Cool images on your site! I used Nikons for 25 years before changing over to Canon and used to own that 135mm. I am not committed to either other than financially... I'll go with whoever does the job for me at the time. Both are just great tools and I know that D300 of yours is a great camera. My web site has approx 10,000 images on it now and some are scans of slides shot with Nikon in the past.

Thank you once again!
Best,
Jim

Hi Jim,

The Hosa YXM121 Y-cable sounds like it will work for what you want, I'm not fully sure as I've never used that particular cable myself...

However, if what you want is to get the audio signal from a mono mic into both channels of the H4n, as I recall, the H4n has an internal menu function that lets you set the H4n to do that without a special cable. At the moment, not having the H4n manual handy, I can not elaborate on how to do it but as I recall its listed in the H4n operating menus as a selection.

Thanks for all the info Mitch. I'll let you know when and what I decide. You've been a big help.
Jim

Ordered these today....

Sennheiser ME66 - Short Shotgun Mic Capsule
Sennheiser K6 Powering Module
Sennheiser SEMZW66 wind screen
Hosa HOSMMRAXF5 Stereo Mini Angled Male to 3-Pin XLR Female Cable
Azden AZSMH1 SMH-1 Shock Mount

I know I'll order a good xlr cable from Sweetwater and possibly an additional wind muffler at some point. Thanks for your help.