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Britain's Birds (1 Viewer)

Fair points Steve but I still think you're being a little faint with your praise and whilst the authors certainly don't need any 'validation', I think some reading your comments may well think it's a less good book than it actually is. Average (and well beyond) would still get a lot out of the book.

It was interesting to chat to some of the team who produced the book at the Bird Fair yesterday who told me that
a) the sales have been very good - so much so that Waterstones are now stocking it (see my previous post)
b) there's a 'back story' to the maps issue (no details given!), they're well aware of the problems & disappointed how they turned out. It was implied that they would be corrected asap.
c) Given the strong sales, there's a very good chance a 'European' version covering the 'missing' species will appear anon. Perhaps, though, they ought to take on Steve Preddy as a sub-editor first!
 
Surely more photo either means more pages required or smaller size photos used, neither of which is ideal. Although I have a copy of the book, and I am very happy with it (and find the treatment of the gulls very helpful), maybe I should've waited until Steve brings out his own far superior fieldguide which will doubtless feature everything 'missing', at a similar very affordable price? When is it due?

Had a look at the list of 'missing' stuff and most (not all) of it is also 'missing' from the Collins Bird Guide.
 
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Surely more photo either means more pages required or smaller size photos used, neither of which is ideal.

No: you're missing my central point, which is about the utility of the book to the average birder and how well the design decisions made support that.

"if there is room to include multiple photos of Audouin's Gull, which is only likely to found in britain by a tiny fraction of the most dedicated birders, then surely there is room to include/correct each of the following, which will potentially be experienced by the average birder multiple times in their career"

Although I have a copy of the book, and I am very happy with it (and find the treatment of the gulls very helpful), maybe I should've waited until Steve brings out his own far superior fieldguide which will doubtless feature everything 'missing', at a similar very affordable price? When is it due?

I thought it wouldn't be long before this thread descended to Birdforum's usual standards. See John's and my contributions above for an example of how it's possible for two people have a civil discussion about a subject they disagree about.
 
Whether there is more or less likelihood of the average birder seeing any/all of your 'missing' photos is neither here nor there, the book sets out to show all species seen in Britain and Ireland - which it pretty much does (and a bit more). Obviously within that, there will be species that most of us will never, ever see, but having the info in one place, just in case, makes the book worth having. Where do you draw the line with regards hybrids etc? I'm more likely to see a Mallard x Shoveler than I am a Spectacled Warbler or an Eastern Kingbird. By your reasoning the former should be in the book. Same applies to plumages - we have Carrion Crows around here with white in the wings, should they be in the book (EDIT : I see you've already mentioned these)? I suspect that space constraints (maybe adding extra pages would not have been cost-effective -adding £s to the cover price) will have dictated some of the decisions made. Whether those are the 'right' decisions or not comes down to individual opinion. You have yours, I have mine, others will have their own.

My suggestion of waiting for your fieldguide was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, though you have taken it as abuse, which is your choice. Given that you have strong opinions on what should be in and what shouldn't be, seriously why don't you give it a go? I, and no doubt others, would be interested to see what the end result would be. It is easy to criticise other's work and to say that this should be done, or that shouldn't be done. It isn't quite so easy to actually put the effort in to produce something of even a similar standard, let alone to top it.

In my opinion, there will never be a definitive British fieldguide - with every possible plumage/hybrid/subspecies and completely accurate and comprehensive info, because the situation with regards Britain's birds is so fluid. Ranges shrink/get larger rendering maps out of date. Species get added/removed from the list. New ID pointers are discovered, others are rendered obsolete. Birds vocabularies are wider than the 'typical' call/song (is it Chaffinch that has 13 different calls?), so do you transcribe them all?
 
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Thanks for that; some responses below.

Whether there is more or less likelihood of the average birder seeing any/all of your 'missing' photos is neither here nor there, the book sets out to show all species seen in Britain and Ireland - which it pretty much does (and a bit more). Obviously within that, there will be species that most of us will never, ever see, but having the info in one place, just in case, makes the book worth having.

The decision to cover all species recorded is partly what I'm challenging: partly for exactly the reasons you list in your last paragraph. Who's to say, for example, that the next Pacific alcid that turns up will be one of the three shown? Or that the declining (and possibly never to be seen here again) Little Whimbrel (included) is a better candidate than the long-overdue Willet? If this were an attempt at an illustrated avifauna then fair enough, but it's intended as a field guide - at least I think it is - so the most appropriate way to evaluate it is on its usefulness in the field.

Where do you draw the line with regards hybrids etc? I'm more likely to see a Mallard x Shoveler than I am a Spectacled Warbler or an Eastern Kingbird. By your reasoning the former should be in the book. Same applies to plumages - we have Carrion Crows around here with white in the wings, should they be in the book (EDIT : I see you've already mentioned these)?

In my first post above, I outlined a process by which authors of books like this could prioritise their decisions. If you ask where to draw the line, I'd say that's a commercial decision: what I'm questioning is whether, wherever that line is drawn, it's more helpful to include lots of photos that surely fall well below the line, at the expense of lots of photos that fall well above it.

I suspect that space constraints (maybe adding extra pages would not have been cost-effective -adding £s to the cover price) will have dictated some of the decisions made.

But I'm not sure that inclusion of these extra photos would have added lots of extra pages/pounds. Take pick just a couple of examples of where space could have been used more efficiently: (a) Semipalmated Plover: the useful ID features on this species are on its head and its feet. If this entry were to be trimmed to just show those parts of the bird, about a quarter of page would be saved (b) Avocet and Black-winged Stilt - do such easy-to-identify species really need two whole pages? Multiply this up, and you free up tens of pages which could be filled with the omitted images.

Whether those are the 'right' decisions or not comes down to individual opinion. You have yours, I have mine, others will have their own. My suggestion of waiting for your fieldguide was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, though you have taken it as abuse, which is your choice.

I wouldn't go as far as to call it abuse; I just thought it wasn't a very constructive thing to say. You appeared to be saying that people should only be prepared to voice their opinions if they are favourable opinions. That's an opinion you're entitled to, but you're not entitled to try to shut people down if they disagree with you about it. How far do you go? Should people never complain to a service provider about poor service because they were trying really hard? Should people never criticise politicians because it's a really tough job?

It is easy to criticise other's work

Actually, no it isn't. It's easy to make poorly thought-out, ill-informed criticisms. Making carefully considered, constructive criticisms is a rare skill: you may not think I have that skill, but if you are suggesting that criticism isn't a valuable part of the creative process, then I couldn't disagree more.
 
I get where you're coming from, and to an extent do agree with at least some of what you've said. I can see the logic in illustrating the species that have been seen in Britain up till now, but is it possible to guess what is likely to show up next? I'm not so sure that it is, especially with the far eastern migrants, or the Pacific seabirds etc. That does seem to make it difficult to decide where the cut-off points are, unless you go with the British list as the start point.

I suppose that there are countless 'British' fieldguides available already for the 'average' birder which show the birds that we can safely expect to see (and I think I own most of them!), but very few that show more than a handful of the rarer birds that can be expected or have been seen a handful of times. I think that trying to illustrate the possibilities (based on what has been seen in the past) all in one place is a great idea. Prior to this book being published I downloaded an app which showed all 600-ish species (having only found 1 BBRC rarity myself so far and 2 SBRC I'm unlikely to need it, but being prepared seemed like a good idea).

I think that placing similar species on facing pages for comparison reasons has led to some of the potentially usable spare space and cutting down on some of that might upset the balance of the layout/usefulness of that reasoning? It is already a big book for a fieldguide (too big?) and packs in a lot of good quality information - as Wildguides have published 2nd editions of a few of their titles already, I suspect that a second edition will follow within a few years and maybe some of the things you've pointed out (and the maps - my main gripe with the book as is, though in practice I rarely look at them) will be amended/changed.
 
Fair points Steve but I still think you're being a little faint with your praise and whilst the authors certainly don't need any 'validation', I think some reading your comments may well think it's a less good book than it actually is. Average (and well beyond) would still get a lot out of the book.

John, OK, just in case anyone is in any doubt, I do think (despite the fact that there is much that could be improved) that this is a very good book - if I was giving out Amazon-style star ratings, I'd give both the Crossley guide and this book 4 stars out of 5, whereas any previous photo gudes would have struggled to make a 2.

... as Wildguides have published 2nd editions of a few of their titles already, I suspect that a second edition will follow within a few years and maybe some of the things you've pointed out (and the maps - my main gripe with the book as is, though in practice I rarely look at them) will be amended/changed.

I hope so - and maybe it will be sooner than that. In response to the comments made on here, Killian Mullarney arranged for a new printing of the Collins Guide which appeared within months, although of course the corrections to that book were much easier to make (mainly typos etc).

And all these lines of thought together give you my answer to your question about why I don't just produce my own field guide ... when there's so much good material in the WILDguides book (as there was/is in Collins), the most effective use of my time & skills is to build on this and come up with ideas for improvement which can make both of them even better.

Did either of you have any opinions on why the juvenile Lesser Black-back is one, by the way?
 
Have been struggling to get my head around the intricacies of the (non-adult) larger gull plumages until fairly recently - have started picking out Lessers in flight because of the all dark primaries but on the ground ID is still a work in progress for me (can't rely on an adult being present all the time - my default till now), so I can't offer anything worthwhile on that one. Not overly impressed with the juvenile Herring Gull on the ground shot though on P125 - tertials looks a bit worn for using as an ID feature (though there is a small section on P132 that shows the scalloping better on 1st winter HG).
 
John, OK, just in case anyone is in any doubt, I do think (despite the fact that there is much that could be improved) that this is a very good book - if I was giving out Amazon-style star ratings, I'd give both the Crossley guide and this book 4 stars out of 5, whereas any previous photo guides would have struggled to make a 2.

Thanks for clarifying the point Steve - if you'd said that in the first place I wouldn't have griped! I thought the new guide (maps apart) a distinct step up from Crossley since it is far more flexible particularly in how it treats difficult "species pairs". In particular, I find the occasional use of information in tabular form very helpful and a good way to present complex information. Would you agree?

I can't think of a rival photographic guide that I'd give more than 2 (although the RSPB one which I've not got might just scrape a 3). I'd give this one 4.5 and Crossley a 4 so we're not so far apart. What both books tell us is that the vast gulf in utility that once separated finely illustrated guides from photographic ones has been closed to a level where the difference is marginal.

As for the LBBG I think if I saw the bird I assume you mean in the field I wouldn't argue with identifying it as a LBBG ...
 
I find the occasional use of information in tabular form very helpful and a good way to present complex information. Would you agree?

Yep.

As for the LBBG I think if I saw the bird I assume you mean in the field I wouldn't argue with identifying it as a LBBG ...

My main concerns about this bird (the one at the bottom of p127) are that I can't see any variation in pattern from inner to outer greater-coverts (except the very outermost one), that the pale edges of the tertials reach right up to their bases, and that the fringes to the scapulars are at the broad and notchey end for an LBbG. The tertials pattern away from the fringes and the lack of virtual absence of white at the primary-tips seem fine for LBbG, but other features (bill shape, face pattern, wing length) seem within the range of variation of either species. I wouldn't argue with someone who had seen this bird in flight and noted correct tail and wing patterns if they IDd it as an LBbG, but I don't see how it's definitely identifiable as one from this photo alone. What I'd be interested to know is what features you're seeing that give you enough confidence not to be worried about the problem features. Interesting, I've also noticed that the juv Herring Gull (at the bottom left of p125) seems to show classic LBbG tertials!
 
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P.S. According to Mark Constantine on Facebook, the "Poole Harbour pub regulars" have found 60 mislabelled photos. Clearly I'm a complete amateur.
 
Having had a look at the comments on Mark Constantine's facebook page and your own, Steve, I will say in defence of my earlier comments about how good I thought the book was/how harsh your comments appeared - having a Scottish (+1 English species) life-list of less than 260 (and decent amount of experience of probably around 200 or so of those), I'm not gonna be able to pick up mislabelled/misidentified birds in most of the cases without sitting with the Collins (and maybe a few other books) and going through the photos 1 by 1. I'm reliant on books being accurate and am (now) disappointed that this one does not actually appear to be. There does appear to be a huge amount of (hopefully accurate) information which I'm dipping in and out of, and hoping to be able to put some of it to use over the next few months, but as with any photo guide, I wouldn't solely rely on 1 photo to confirm any ID I was unsure of anyway. Maybe we will see a 2nd edition much sooner, after all. Still a lot to like about the book, I think (at least for me - especially having 'every species' in one book (not so fussed about every plumage - I have plenty of other books in my library to consult if required to be specific about age/sex etc)).
 
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Here is a list of the photos which I'm aware of which depict different species from the one they're captioned as:

p139 Audouin's Gull juvenile - not an Audouin's; probably juv Yellow-legged

p182 Little Ringed Plover juvenile - actually a Ringed Plover (it's sufficiently different-looking from the juvenile Ringed Plover shown on p183 that it would have made a nice addition to that plate to show the variation in head-pattern)

p211 Common Sandpiper first-winter - actually a Spotted Sandpiper

p360 Richard's Pipit first-winter - actually a Tawny Pipit

p485 Serin juvenile - actually a juvenile Citril Finch
 
... says the man responsible for the most detailed regional birding site guide in Europe (and possibly the world?) |=)|

I didn't realise that this a 'who can make the other blush the most competition'! Your observation is very kind indeed but I must doff my cap to you when it comes to proofreading 'Britain's Birds'. I managed to spot the LRP/RP error, thought 'Blimey I didn't realise they were so similar' but didn't twig the Common/Spotted mistake, should have noticed the Audouin's and Citril Finch errors but wouldn't have spotted that the pipit was misidentified.

I hope that the "Poole Harbour pub regulars" and yourself will write to the publishers/authors listing the mistakes (in suitably diplomatic language!). As it's my feeling that they'll really want to know and that given the popularity of the book a second edition (not to mention that European version) can't be far away. I'd guess it's a lot easier for errors of this sort to happen in a photographic guide with 3,000+ photos (2% error rate is low but too high in a book of this nature) than one that's been painted by a knowledgeable artist ...
 
I'm afraid I can't take credit for noticing the misidentified photos: I haven't got the time at the moment to "do a Collins" on this book. In fact I had to stare long and hard at that pipit to convince myself that it was misidentified. I've already tweeted Hugh a link to this thread so he should be aware. I'm told Chris Batty has also emailed the publishers 150 comments.

EDIT: Chris has been in touch to tell me that the figure of 150 represents Chinese whispers (never believe anything you read on Facebook...) - he has emailed the publishers querying a small number of captions, that's all.
 
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I've just read through the thread on Mark Constantine's FB page. Whilst I'm sure that all of the criticisms regarding various errors are both valid and justified, I'm a little disappointed by the rather superior tone of some comments. It feels to me that some are more keen to rubbish what remains (despite the faults) a very good effort and less keen on being constructive. To entirely dismiss, as some seem to be doing, a work of 3,500+ photos on the basis that 60-150 are wrong (too many I agree) is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I appreciate that those involved inhabit a far more rarified atmosphere than most birders (which is meant as a compliment) but for the vast majority of readers this remains a good guide and a substantial improvement in many areas on what's gone before. It's a pity that nobody on the thread seems willing to acknowledge any of the book's good points which would make their critique all the better.
 
It's a pity that nobody on the thread seems willing to acknowledge any of the book's good points which would make their critique all the better.

I know that's not directed at me, John, but I've added some words of support for your comment on Mark's post, in an attempt to strike more of a balance.
 
I've been watchingt this thread develop and all I can say is, why is there not a wider pool of proof readers for such books?

Andy
 
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