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Grist to the Anti-raptor Mill (1 Viewer)

Hi EG,

You clearly have a fair amount of experience of the eagles on Mull. I am genuinely interested in some of the things you have to say. I'm an amateur enthusiast and no expert.

Is it really correct that human inprinting would still be expected on wt eagle several generations after the reintroduction? Is the argument that a small degree of tameness has been bred into the Scottish birds' and their wild instincts? I saw some fascinating video footage at the Ardnamurchan Natural History Centre a few years back which was filmed at a remote location where they put out carcasses to attract the eagles. Although one sequence is hardly conclusive, there was little doubt that the goldie was far more timid and flighty. The bird would barely settle to feed for constantly scanning above. I was rather surprised at the behaviour to be honest (Of course, there are unlimited explanations).The wt eagles seemed much more at ease at the carcass. Subjective though this was, it really highlighted a difference between the eagles for me. It does fit with the broad theory you are suggesting.

The loss of a goldie is of course sad but is it not also just as likely to happen in Norway when the birds come together over territories? The wt eagle is the larger more powerful predator after all (he says without any authority...). Is it not arguably a little higher up the apex?

To be honest, this discussion is now off topic (and I acknowledge I've made that worse!). The recent raptor press articles do nothing to assist in improving society's understanding of these amazing birds. The standard of journalism, aside of any hidden agenda, has been woefully lacking. I can't profess to know all the specific facts about eagle predation so you won't find me blindly pleading on their behalf. However, goldies can't be subject to any reintroduction arguments. They have been natives long before we started mass domesticated sheep farming. And surely losses to natural predation have always been factored into a farmer's finances.
 
:t:

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A balanced opinion may seem strange to a zelot but hey ho i'll deal with it

I'm not a zealot - just have a good knowledge of the Irish project and the areas they sourced WTSE's in Norway. The fact is that 5 years into the Irish project, not one lamb has been reported to have been harmed let alone killed, and i can tell you farmers in that part of Ireland's sheep country were more then a little sceptical of this project at the start!!
 
Hi EG,

You clearly have a fair amount of experience of the eagles on Mull. I am genuinely interested in some of the things you have to say. I'm an amateur enthusiast and no expert.

Is it really correct that human inprinting would still be expected on wt eagle several generations after the reintroduction? Is the argument that a small degree of tameness has been bred into the Scottish birds' and their wild instincts? I saw some fascinating video footage at the Ardnamurchan Natural History Centre a few years back which was filmed at a remote location where they put out carcasses to attract the eagles. Although one sequence is hardly conclusive, there was little doubt that the goldie was far more timid and flighty. The bird would barely settle to feed for constantly scanning above. I was rather surprised at the behaviour to be honest (Of course, there are unlimited explanations).The wt eagles seemed much more at ease at the carcass. Subjective though this was, it really highlighted a difference between the eagles for me. It does fit with the broad theory you are suggesting.

The loss of a goldie is of course sad but is it not also just as likely to happen in Norway when the birds come together over territories? The wt eagle is the larger more powerful predator after all (he says without any authority...). Is it not arguably a little higher up the apex?

To be honest, this discussion is now off topic (and I acknowledge I've made that worse!). The recent raptor press articles do nothing to assist in improving society's understanding of these amazing birds. The standard of journalism, aside of any hidden agenda, has been woefully lacking. I can't profess to know all the specific facts about eagle predation so you won't find me blindly pleading on their behalf. However, goldies can't be subject to any reintroduction arguments. They have been natives long before we started mass domesticated sheep farming. And surely losses to natural predation have always been factored into a farmer's finances.

Hi as I keep saying the w.t. eagles certainly on mull have not lost that non fear of man since they first bred on loch ba in the 70s, the genuine wild birds in norway, the golden eagle rules the roost, why, because they know what they are, that may sound bisare to some folk, but once man starts messing with wild creatures any thing can happen, one particiular pair on mull will literaly land next to you.
As for Irish kite I am afraid you are lacking in your info, my contacts in ireland have said quite openly that lambs have been taken, also a sea eagle and a young golden eagle have been poisoned over there, as someone keeps saying to me, make sure of your facts, get your book prove read, I have dealt with things like this for a long time, but the time as come to come out, I think also we have come off subject re the false picture of a golden eagle carrying a lamb, dont you think the papers should be challenged ????
 
the first batch of young sea eagles on rhumm were jessed up and on long lines so they could exercise, but were fed by thier keepers in full view, so they lost that fear of man( I have a video of this happening) the authorities said at the time this would breed out of them, but it has not, when you visit the isle of mull you can see the w.t. eagles sat at the side of the road, no way would you see a wild one doing that, go see them in norway.

Wow; so the project has reintroduced a native raptor and proved lamarckism was right after all! Impressive.

Also it's not like Haliaeetus sp. have been known to show no fear of people when presented with easy food and no threat of persecution is it?.....
http://www.baldeagleinfo.com/eagle/JeanKeene.html
 
Wow; so the project has reintroduced a native raptor and proved lamarckism was right after all! Impressive.

Also it's not like Haliaeetus sp. have been known to show no fear of people when presented with easy food and no threat of persecution is it?.....
http://www.baldeagleinfo.com/eagle/JeanKeene.html
The Bald Eagle has always been known to gather in big groups and to take food that has been left for them,
more so in bad weather, not connected in any way to the released w.t.e

You could say that re red kites at the feeding station in wales, oh sorry they were reintro to ????
 
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Some questions

.
As for Irish kite I am afraid you are lacking in your info, my contacts in ireland have said quite openly that lambs have been taken, ????

If they have it certainly hasn't be reported to the authorities or mentioned in any media over here which is rather odd given the initial hostility by some farm groups to both Eagle re-introductions. I get to speak occasionally to both project leaders and they have confirmed same. I'm fully aware of the high number of poisonings of both species(though it should be noted that many birds have gone missing over NI and not the Republic), and in Ireland at least, rogue sheep farmers have been the prime suspects.


What I'd like to know from you are the following

1) Can you point me to any published studies anywhere in the world that show that the presence of these this Sea-eagle species has threatened the conservational status of other Eagle species? - particulary Golden and Imperial Eagles who's ranges overlap those of Sea-Eagles in many parts of Europe


2) Can you show me similiar studies proving this species is a signficant predator of live sheep and lambs?.

3) What do you hope to achieve with your book in terms of the conservation status of both Golden Eagles and WTSE's?, who both continue to die in signficant numbers in both the UK and Ireland from the widespread and illegal use of poison baits by rogue sheep farmers and gamekeepers

4) Do you seriously consider Sea-Eagle to be one of the main threats to the status of Golden Eagles in the UK at this time?
 
The latest issue of Bird Study includes work that is based on the eyries of all WT Eagles and Golden Eagles on the outer isles, Argyll and Bute, and north west Scotland. They account for around 40% of Scottish Golden Eagle territories. The study notes that the species overlap is greatest in the outer isles where the Golden Eagle population increase by 28% between 1992 and 2003 - during that time the rate of increase in WTE has also accelerated. More recent expansion on Skye and and the Western Isles has not led to any obvious adverse influence on GE populations.

The detailed analysis suggests that in the study areas WTE and GE, while there may be some overlap in habitat use and food supplies, there appears to be a larger degree of separation, largely by elevation.

The study also quotes another previous study which described the relationship between WTE and GE in Scotland as "armed neutrality" - ie, while both species may anecdotally kill each other this did not appear to have a predatory basis.

EG's posts to date implicating WTE in killing GE seem to be based on a single incident - as does his suggestions regarding eagles and lambs - speak to a particular farmer. That's not science. Also, there have been earlier studies (referenced at the time on the relevant Bird Forum thread) which have shown that husbandry practice and stocking levels have a significant influence on the likelihood that eagles will take lambs. It also highlighted the difficulties of being certain the eagles had actually predated the lambs as opposed to taking them as carrion.

cheers
Gordon
 
As I understand it. Golden Eagles are more sensitive to human disturbance than White-tailed. Elsewhere within its range White-taileds are much more tolerant of humans than Goldens and even in remote places are likely to displace Goldens from the nest sites the White-taileds prefer, When the White-tailed was extirpated from Scotland some of their traditional sites were occuppied by Goldens. The new birds, however, are from the relatively well wooded Norwegian coast and prefer tree nests which are a very rare choice for Scottish Golden Eagles. No doubt there is some interaction, after all a Golden Eagle near a White-tailed's nest does present a real predatory threat to the eaglets. The denuded ecosystem of the west coast of Scotland also makes conflict more likely.

As for the claims of lamb killing, both species certainly do but not in the numbers some claim and they certainly don't kill healthy, adult sheep.
 
The latest issue of Bird Study includes work that is based on the eyries of all WT Eagles and Golden Eagles on the outer isles, Argyll and Bute, and north west Scotland. They account for around 40% of Scottish Golden Eagle territories. The study notes that the species overlap is greatest in the outer isles where the Golden Eagle population increase by 28% between 1992 and 2003 - during that time the rate of increase in WTE has also accelerated. More recent expansion on Skye and and the Western Isles has not led to any obvious adverse influence on GE populations.

The detailed analysis suggests that in the study areas WTE and GE, while there may be some overlap in habitat use and food supplies, there appears to be a larger degree of separation, largely by elevation.

The study also quotes another previous study which described the relationship between WTE and GE in Scotland as "armed neutrality" - ie, while both species may anecdotally kill each other this did not appear to have a predatory basis.

EG's posts to date implicating WTE in killing GE seem to be based on a single incident - as does his suggestions regarding eagles and lambs - speak to a particular farmer. That's not science. Also, there have been earlier studies (referenced at the time on the relevant Bird Forum thread) which have shown that husbandry practice and stocking levels have a significant influence on the likelihood that eagles will take lambs. It also highlighted the difficulties of being certain the eagles had actually predated the lambs as opposed to taking them as carrion.

cheers
Gordon

Fve golden eagles to date have been killed on mull , one female w.t. has then paired up with the male golden eagle, eggs are laid but are infertile. (fact)
 
Fve golden eagles to date have been killed on mull , one female w.t. has then paired up with the male golden eagle, eggs are laid but are infertile. (fact)

Five Golden Eagles have been killed by White-tailed Eagles? The evidence for this, dates, post mortems to ascertain cause of death? Presumably these deaths have either been witnessed or documented by post mortem.

Even assuming your numbers are correct and having a huge leap of faith in your knowledge as to the cause of death this averages 1 every 8 years so is it safe to assume that you agree with Gordon that these occasions are 'anecdotal' and therefore of little or no cause for concern?
 
The Bald Eagle has always been known to gather in big groups and to take food that has been left for them,
more so in bad weather, not connected in any way to the released w.t.e

Of course it's connected - they're in the same genus. Just like the Steller's sea eagles which form big groups and scavenge food in japan (alongside large numbers of white-tailed eagles). Chilling out on the ground eating carrion and not being too bothered about people is what the species in this genus do when people aren't shooting at them.

and as for the red kites; was someone inprinting them to do this back in shakespeare's day?
 
Putting fact in brackets at the end of a sentance doesn't make it fact (fact)

As far as I know, white tailed eagles are much more tolerant of humans than golden eagles. In Eastern Europe they are found close to humans even in cities sometimes. As for the clashes with golden eagles, it just sounds like nature to me. This is part of how nature controls the number of predators - when the density reaches a maximum they kill each other.

I'm genuinely interested in this imprinting issue, but some of it sounds extremely far fetched.
 
Putting fact in brackets at the end of a sentance doesn't make it fact (fact)

As far as I know, white tailed eagles are much more tolerant of humans than golden eagles. In Eastern Europe they are found close to humans even in cities sometimes. As for the clashes with golden eagles, it just sounds like nature to me. This is part of how nature controls the number of predators - when the density reaches a maximum they kill each other.

I'm genuinely interested in this imprinting issue, but some of it sounds extremely far fetched.

Hi have you ever been to the isle of mull,and had a good look round ???
 
EG,
once again you respond to others' opinions/questions with a simple question. The obvious implication (to me at least) is that you are implying that there are "things" that you know that would be obvious to anybody who cared to look. Yet, the detailed research which has been carried out appears to refute what you say. Still, you try to maintain this mysterious persona which implies that you know "things" other don't but you provide no solid evidence - just hearsay and gossip.

And, yes I've been on Mull and "had a look around", seeing on a number of occasions various combinations of WTE and GE in the air in the same glen at the same time with no interaction between them. So, based on that, is my assertion that WTE and GE do not impact on each other therefore true and applicable to all situations?

cheers
Gordon
 
Hi have you ever been to the isle of mull,and had a good look round ???

Sadly not yet so I can't add anything from personal experience

But thats not really relevant. Lots of people have studied the eagles on Mull and no-one else seems to be saying the same things that you are!
 
in defence of goldies

Sadly not yet so I can't add anything from personal experience

But thats not really relevant. Lots of people have studied the eagles on Mull and no-one else seems to be saying the same things that you are!

maybe because the authorities have closed ranks, so that the details are kept a secret, but its strange that my fictional
evidence re sea eagles, was taken into account by others who were going to get these birds released elswhere, and that the
methods used on the east of scotland for rearing & release were all altered so the same thing did not happen.
 
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Ah, so getting married on the island and being a godfather to the kids makes you see things to do with eagles that other 'proper' scientists can't...hmmmmm. This thread reminds me of the man with the giant ravens.....! Please, print your book. I'd love to read the reviews....
 
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