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Sorry , not a bird question (1 Viewer)

Taphrospilus

Taphrospilus

Well-known member
Does anyone know if the dedication for Cercopithecus Werneri a synonym for Chlorocebus sabaeus is for the natural history painter (as well nice bird plates) Jean-Charles Werner or Jacques-Christophe Werner? He was the teacher of Emmanuel Frémiet (1824–1910).

Or was second name accidentily introduced through this guy:

Le grand-père aura une fille, Catherine Éléonore, qui épousera en 1740 Jacques-Christophe Werner, l'architecte ou Baumeister de la ville et aura deux fils, Jean-Nicolas et Jean-Georges, respectivement l'oncle et le père de Cuvier au sujet desquels ce dernier écrira : « L ' aîné est devenu un ministre très savant qui a pris quelque part à mon éducation ; le plus jeune fort étourdi dans sa jeunesse se sauva de la maison paternelle ; et s'engagea dans un régiment suisse au service de France. »
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As I somewhere read he was the grandfather of the natural history painter.

If correct he died 7. October 1856

In Paris starb am 7. der naturhistorische Maler Werner, der seit 20 Jahren beim naturhistorischen Museum angestellt die trefflichsten Bilder zu Zwecken der Zoologie und Anatomie gemalt hat.
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Or here or here

WERNER , Jacques Christophe Français . Né en 1798 . Mort le 7 Octobre 1856 à Paris . Cet artiste travailla pour le Muséum national d ' histoire naturelle de Paris . Il réalisa de nombreux dessins et aquarelles sur les poissons indonésiens . Il devint un illustrateur célèbre et ses travaux furent publiés dans de nombreux ouvrages .
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If correct reconstructed here p. 8 of 51 Jacques Christophe.

Christine Elisabeth Jackson named him in Dictionary of Bird Artists of the World Jean-Charles Werner.
 
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I have no idea who the painter is/was ...

But "Jean Charles Werner (1798–1856)", seems to have worked for several (many, many, many) naturalists (in various fields of Zoology), at least according to here.

If of any help?

/B
--
 
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Suddenly yet a bird etymology question as the old key claims:

Jean-Charles Werner (1798-1856) French artist, painter of natural history subjects at Jardin des Plantes 1826-1856 (ex Turdus naumanni Werner, 1842, nec Temminck, 1820) (syn. Turdus obscurus)
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Sorry I did not get the story of Turdus werneri. Where do we find Turdus naumanni Werner, 1842? Usually the artist is not the author. I assume the name was on a plate from Werner which was published before the description (or stand alone) and as the name Turdus naumanni was already occupied a new name was created in honor to Werner. But that's just my speculation and I might be wrong with the story.

OK OD here and plate here. But Géné is 1832 and why Werner, 1842? Here Turdus naumanni Temminck, 1820 .

Must be somwhere in here Werners plate.

As well read here:

BN Cat. gén. : sous la vedette : Werner (Jean-Charles) : confusion avec Jean Charles Werner, peintre d'histoire naturelle, ayant travaillé pour le Jardin des Plantes à Paris de 1830 à 1860
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Original plate (uncoloured -- a coloured version may exist too, but I don't find it now) by Werner here.
Werner was the author of the book as well. However, as Werner's work was intended to illustrate Temminck's Manuel d'ornithologie where the name Turdus naumanni was introduced, and as he, here, linked directly to the OD (vol. I, p. 170), it seems safe to say that Werner simply misapplied Temminck's name. (I.e., no new "Turdus naumanni" was made available in Werner's book.)
 
I read it that way Turdus naumanni (plate) is in fact Turdus obscurus J. F. Gmelin, 1789 (=Turdus werneri Gene 1832). Correct?

But in this case the plate was published 1832 or before.

P. S. There is still some small doubt that a Jean Charles Werner was at the Jardin des Plantes in 1860. Here as Jacques Chistophe Werner.
 
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Taphrospilus said:
I read it that way Turdus naumanni (plate) is in fact Turdus obscurus J. F. Gmelin, 1789 (=Turdus werneri Gene 1832). Correct?

But in this case the plate was published 1832 or before.
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Yes, correct.
1842 is the date on the title page [here], but the work was evidently published in livraisons, and this date does not represent the date of publication of the entire work.
(The first livr., with 10 plates, was announced on 11 Mar 1826 in Bibliogr. France https://books.google.be/books?id=jqRJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA195 . The plan was to issue a livraison every month, and 55 livraisons in total. But in practice it went slower. Livr. 31 was published in 1834; this is the last one I find in Bibliogr. France.)
 
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Taphrospilus said:
P. S. There is still some small doubt that a Jean Charles Werner was at the Jardin des Plantes in 1860. Here as Jacques Chistophe Werner.
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I tend towards Jacques Christophe as well. Not sure about Jean-Charles / Johann-Carl.

[This] is a coloured version of the plate. (And, well, seeing this, I think I'd actually make it a Naumann's Thrush... :unsure: Very similar to [this].)
 
I am pretty sure now his name was Jacques Chistophe Werner. He was first married with Anne Pauline Gragnot . They had three children. Second marriage was a Catherine Pierrette Champeaux (she died probably in Paris).

According...

Claus Nissen: Die zoologische Buchillustration. Ihre Bibliographie und Geschichte. Vol 2. Anton Hiersemann, Stuttgart 1978, ISBN 978-3-7772-7832-2, p. 167.
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1665330761105.png
According to Nissen no birth record in Montbéliard found.

So still a mystery but may found with the additional marriage recordsa and/or birth records of his children.
 
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He may be born in Nancy on 15 Prairial an VI = 3 June 1798 -- here, 29/155.

But beware there may potentially be a father-and-son issue here, as there is also a Jacques Christophe Werner, born in Bièvres (Essonne) on 31 Jul 1818, recognized natural son of Jacques Christophe Werner, employee at the "Jardin du Roy" (= Jardin des Plantes) in Paris, and Denise Virginie Lamy -- here, 201/274.
 
l_raty said:
He may be born in Nancy on 15 Prairial an VI = 3 June 1798 -- here, 29/155.

But beware there may potentially be a father-and-son issue here, as there is also a Jacques Christophe Werner, born in Bièvres (Essonne) on 31 Jul 1818, recognized natural son of Jacques Christophe Werner, employee at the "Jardin du Roy" (= Jardin des Plantes) in Paris, and Denise Virginie Lamy -- here, 201/274.
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After I have sewen the documents from the Archive National de Paris https://francearchives.fr/fr/facomponent/d5ed5994e022ec87c794f668e14b8ad0fee8ff7e you are absoletly correct. This is him.👍
 
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