Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Birds of Bolivia - Rip off?

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Saturday 18th November 2017, 11:17   #1
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,412
Birds of Bolivia - Rip off?

Anyone else think that this price is extortionate?

http://www.wildsounds.com/products/5...-Bolivia.shtml

It's not priced on NHBS, still, no one can actually lay their hands on them. Not printing this in English and not making it available in Europe, has to go down as a massive, missed opportunity, especially if it's for charity, however, how many will pay this price for it?


A

Last edited by andyadcock : Saturday 18th November 2017 at 11:22.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 19th November 2017, 10:39   #2
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,412
Had a pm to say that the title is $75 in the states although even there, there seems to be no stock.


A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 19th November 2017, 15:46   #3
Swissboy
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019
 
Swissboy's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sempach, Switzerland
Posts: 3,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Had a pm to say that the title is $75 in the states although even there, there seems to be no stock.


A
I think the initial printing was meant to be distributed mainly within Bolivia and possibly the rest of the continent. Shipping to Europe and possibly to North America seems so horribly expensive that a new print run up north must be the solution now planned. At the same time, as much urgent desire has already been stuffed, it is obvious that the number of copies likely to be sold from such a second printing will not be extremely high. Thus, distributing the costs over that lower number of copies will raise the price. And finally, the idea is still to provide funds for the local projects in Bolivia. So that will all up the final price. But then, if it turns out to be too high, many such as myself will think twice about getting a copy, particularly if one has no immediate travel plans. It's really a shame that this book might be priced out of the average FG collector's considerations.

As for there not being any copies available at this point, it is no wonder. The book as announced now will have to be printed first. If Buteo Books really did get some books shipped from Bolivia, as they once intended, they will all long have gone. But I think a price of 75$ would be acceptable considering the points mentioned above.

Edit: I notice Buteo Books have not even listed the book any more!
__________________
Robert
--PS: That's a Sooty Falcon on the avatar, photo taken near Sharm el Sheik, Egypt. My highest priority raptor at the time.
What's your species on the avatar? I often have no clue
!

Last edited by Swissboy : Sunday 19th November 2017 at 15:54.
Swissboy is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 20th November 2017, 14:58   #4
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,412
It would be extremely annoying if, having paid £90 for this book, it was then printed in Europe and sold at half that price which is probably what it's worth at most?

It was first offered on the Wildsounds site for £70 I believe but it's academic as no one can get any.


A

Last edited by andyadcock : Monday 20th November 2017 at 15:00.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 20th November 2017, 15:55   #5
aegithalos
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 140
I made a donation to the charity producing it (which can be done with UK Gift Aid, thus squeezing a bit off the govt too), and they posted me two copies. In pure monetary terms, each cost me way over the odds, but I am very pleased to have been able to support the local production of a quality field guide and the encouragement that will provide to local birding. I've not had a chance yet to use my copy in the field, but I hope I will one day. Even if monetary considerations were prime, the cost is small beer compared to the total cost of a birding trip to Bolivia. The other copy is returning to Bolivia as we speak in the hands of a birding friend, and I hope it will return well-thumbed.
aegithalos is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 20th November 2017, 18:38   #6
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegithalos View Post
I made a donation to the charity producing it (which can be done with UK Gift Aid, thus squeezing a bit off the govt too), and they posted me two copies. In pure monetary terms, each cost me way over the odds, but I am very pleased to have been able to support the local production of a quality field guide and the encouragement that will provide to local birding. I've not had a chance yet to use my copy in the field, but I hope I will one day. Even if monetary considerations were prime, the cost is small beer compared to the total cost of a birding trip to Bolivia. The other copy is returning to Bolivia as we speak in the hands of a birding friend, and I hope it will return well-thumbed.

That's a very well worn argument that has been used ad nauseum to justify other high costs in the past e.g guide fees. I pay plenty to charities and various conservation organisations as it is but thanks for the lecture. As I understand it, all the proceeds from the book will go to charity so you will have already donated with your purchase.

The cost of this book in the UK is or will be, double or more, than the original price so regardless of the breakdown of costs, this is an expensive book, similar titles usually cost less than half of this and no way is £90 per copy, winging it's way to Amonia. I was ready to pay the high price of postage quoted at the time, it's the profiteering on this side of the atlantic that I object to.

I tried to get one posted to me last year on several occasions but never got a reply of any kind from the official site.

Btw, I'll bet you didn't pay almost £100 per copy?


A

Last edited by andyadcock : Monday 20th November 2017 at 19:17.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 20th November 2017, 19:10   #7
aegithalos
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Btw, I'll bet you didn't pay almost £100 per copy?
My cost per book was substantially more than £100. However, I don't think of this transaction as a purchase, I think of it as a donation to an exceptionally worth while cause that I wanted to support, with the two copies as a bonus. I would like to see more locally produced identification books, and I am willing to donate to help that process, in addition to any surplus that the charity would have got if I had simply purchased a copy.

If this book was produced by a for-profit publisher, such as Collins or Helm, I would be with you on your arguments. But it isn't - it's produced by a charity in the global south, attempting to make information on their country's birds available and more widely distributed locally. The increased awareness that generates ultimately benefits us all, whether we are Bolivians or visiting birders.

Keith

Last edited by aegithalos : Monday 20th November 2017 at 19:10. Reason: clarified an ambiguity
aegithalos is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 20th November 2017, 19:19   #8
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegithalos View Post
My cost per book was substantially more than £100. However, I don't think of this transaction as a purchase, I think of it as a donation to an exceptionally worth while cause that I wanted to support, with the two copies as a bonus. I would like to see more locally produced identification books, and I am willing to donate to help that process, in addition to any surplus that the charity would have got if I had simply purchased a copy.

If this book was produced by a for-profit publisher, such as Collins or Helm, I would be with you on your arguments. But it isn't - it's produced by a charity in the global south, attempting to make information on their country's birds available and more widely distributed locally. The increased awareness that generates ultimately benefits us all, whether we are Bolivians or visiting birders.

Keith
More than £100 per copy, exclusive of your donation?

Who did you contact to get one, I can get no reply from the official site?


A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 21st November 2017, 07:58   #9
aegithalos
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
More than £100 per copy, exclusive of your donation?

Who did you contact to get one, I can get no reply from the official site?
One donation to Bolivia (A), two books from Bolivia (B); A/B > £100.

Sebastian Herzog, Scientific Director of Asociación Armonía

Keith
aegithalos is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 6th January 2018, 18:39   #10
Lerxst
Registered User
 
Lerxst's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Bloomington, MN
Posts: 100
Has anyone that owns or has seen this book written a review (or could they)? I'm thinking about going after a copy. It is listed on Amazon for $95, with very little information otherwise. I don't intend to buy it there, but would rather go directly to the publisher in Bolivia, if that approach is working.

We visited Argentina a few years back and one of the illustrators for this book, Hector Slongo, was our guide (a very good guide!) He showed us a number of the illustrations he had completed for this book and we thought they looked wonderful. I've been anticipating this book for a while.

Thanks,
__________________
-Michael Hurben, Minneapolis / Bangkok
www.legallyblindbirding.net
Lerxst is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 6th January 2018, 20:55   #11
Lerxst
Registered User
 
Lerxst's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Bloomington, MN
Posts: 100
The following site has a number of sample plates from the book. The hummingbirds look amazing.

https://www.nhbs.com/birds-of-bolivia-book
__________________
-Michael Hurben, Minneapolis / Bangkok
www.legallyblindbirding.net
Lerxst is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 6th January 2018, 21:49   #12
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
Has anyone that owns or has seen this book written a review (or could they)? I'm thinking about going after a copy. It is listed on Amazon for $95, with very little information otherwise. I don't intend to buy it there, but would rather go directly to the publisher in Bolivia, if that approach is working.

We visited Argentina a few years back and one of the illustrators for this book, Hector Slongo, was our guide (a very good guide!) He showed us a number of the illustrations he had completed for this book and we thought they looked wonderful. I've been anticipating this book for a while.

Thanks,
Good luck with that, I never got a reply to at least three requests to buy it direct.

My regular supplier had it listed in anticipation of receiving a small stock but it seems to have now been delisted.

The current Amazon listing inclusive of postage will cost about £100 as they're all in the US and the quoted postage from Bolivia will make it a similar price. This is a book that's high on the wanted list and I cannot believe that it hasn't been made available in Europe!


A

Last edited by andyadcock : Saturday 6th January 2018 at 22:13.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 7th January 2018, 16:30   #13
Swissboy
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019
 
Swissboy's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sempach, Switzerland
Posts: 3,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
.........and I cannot believe that it hasn't been made available in Europe!


A
Andy, you probably don't understand the different history of this book. It is not the typical commercial venture. Rather, it is kind of a foreign aid venture where, among others, the Swiss government has helped financially. Thus, the main purpose was to provide a book for the country's inhabitants, I think. Of course, it would have made sense to have a much larger print run. But that is easy to say in hindsight. At the time when decisions had to be made, it seems that there was just not enough assured money to risk printing more and then maybe sit on hundreds of copies for a long time. Of course, a typical commercial entrepreneur would have handled things differently. but as things are now, there is at least a completed book from which it should not all that difficult to produce more copies. The main problem as I see it is that the demand is now in the northern hemisphere whereas the basis for the book is on the other half of the globe. Printing more there, and then shipping from there probably would result in the high price you are rightfully suspecting. So I hope the intended printing "up north" will not be delayed much longer. There are obviously many of us who would want a copy.
__________________
Robert
--PS: That's a Sooty Falcon on the avatar, photo taken near Sharm el Sheik, Egypt. My highest priority raptor at the time.
What's your species on the avatar? I often have no clue
!
Swissboy is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 7th January 2018, 17:43   #14
MJB
Registered User
 
MJB's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holt
Posts: 4,602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swissboy View Post
Andy, you probably don't understand the different history of this book. It is not the typical commercial venture. Rather, it is kind of a foreign aid venture where, among others, the Swiss government has helped financially. Thus, the main purpose was to provide a book for the country's inhabitants, I think. Of course, it would have made sense to have a much larger print run. But that is easy to say in hindsight. At the time when decisions had to be made, it seems that there was just not enough assured money to risk printing more and then maybe sit on hundreds of copies for a long time. Of course, a typical commercial entrepreneur would have handled things differently. but as things are now, there is at least a completed book from which it should not all that difficult to produce more copies. The main problem as I see it is that the demand is now in the northern hemisphere whereas the basis for the book is on the other half of the globe. Printing more there, and then shipping from there probably would result in the high price you are rightfully suspecting. So I hope the intended printing "up north" will not be delayed much longer. There are obviously many of us who would want a copy.
Not everything done by the Swiss is as precise as a Swiss watch, then!
MJB
__________________
The fuzziness of all supposedly absolute taxonomic distinctions - Stephen Jay Gould (1977) "Ever Since Darwin: Reflections in Natural History".
Species and subspecies are but a convenient fiction - Kees van Deemter (2010), "In praise of vagueness". Biology is messy
MJB is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 7th January 2018, 20:35   #15
pbjosh
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Buenos Aires
Posts: 679
I cannot find the post now but I saw a question go by on FB a few days or a week back, asking if the book would be published in Europe, and if Lynx would be publishing it. Sebastian commented that it was going to be reprinted and would be distributed in Europe by Lynx. I don't recall any mention of dates.
pbjosh is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 7th January 2018, 21:02   #16
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
I cannot find the post now but I saw a question go by on FB a few days or a week back, asking if the book would be published in Europe, and if Lynx would be publishing it. Sebastian commented that it was going to be reprinted and would be distributed in Europe by Lynx. I don't recall any mention of dates.
Even with a donation, the book shouldn't cost more than £40-50 but then, the whole proceeds are supposed to be going to the cause anyway so you're supporting simply in buying it at the retail price.


A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 7th January 2018, 21:06   #17
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swissboy View Post
Andy, you probably don't understand the different history of this book. It is not the typical commercial venture. Rather, it is kind of a foreign aid venture where, among others, the Swiss government has helped financially. Thus, the main purpose was to provide a book for the country's inhabitants, I think. Of course, it would have made sense to have a much larger print run. But that is easy to say in hindsight. At the time when decisions had to be made, it seems that there was just not enough assured money to risk printing more and then maybe sit on hundreds of copies for a long time. Of course, a typical commercial entrepreneur would have handled things differently. but as things are now, there is at least a completed book from which it should not all that difficult to produce more copies. The main problem as I see it is that the demand is now in the northern hemisphere whereas the basis for the book is on the other half of the globe. Printing more there, and then shipping from there probably would result in the high price you are rightfully suspecting. So I hope the intended printing "up north" will not be delayed much longer. There are obviously many of us who would want a copy.
Robert, we live in a computer age, why would they have to be printed in the Southern hemisphere to be shipped to the Northern?

Versions of the same Books are printed routinely in Europe or America without the neeed for shipping, all we need is a european printer / publisher.



A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 7th January 2018, 22:50   #18
RafaelMatias
Registered User
 
RafaelMatias's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 2,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyadcock View Post
Robert, we live in a computer age, why would they have to be printed in the Southern hemisphere to be shipped to the Northern?

Versions of the same Books are printed routinely in Europe or America without the neeed for shipping, all we need is a european printer / publisher.



A
I guess printing it in the Northern Hemisphere would have made the book more expensive for people in Bolivia, whom were their main target "audience". And you'd need to travel to say, Spain or the UK, to take care upclose of the printing process (quality check, choosing the right paper, etc...). But maybe there were other completely different reasons behind their choice?

Last edited by RafaelMatias : Monday 8th January 2018 at 16:54.
RafaelMatias is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 8th January 2018, 15:02   #19
cajanuma
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 439
I managed to get a copy from Buteo Books in the US, with the cost of shipping to Italy it came out rather expensive, but it is a very good book. The texts are superb, on par with the Schulenberg et al Peru guide, concise yet very informative and authoritative, with proper attention paid to geographic variation and vocalizations. The maps use dots to mark confirmed records and color shading to mark expected distribution, which I think works very well. With 6 principal illustrators and another 7 artists contributing illustrations, it's no surprise that the plates are a little uneven, but on the whole they are quite good. The ones by Tofte are some of the very best illustrations of Neotropical birds anywhere, for some groups (e.g. raptors) perhaps THE best. I quite like JQ Vidoz's plates as well, although his style is strikingly different from that of Tofte. The other plates range from pretty good to a very few that are downright terrible (a couple of the manakins), but the worst ones are for birds that are very distinctive and easy to identify, so are not really a problem. I get the sense that printing quality for the plates could have been better, and this contributed to a less-than-stellar first impression, but after spending some time studying the book I really came to appreciate just how good it is.

Given the history of this book and its overall quality, I think the title of this thread is a little unfair.
cajanuma is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 8th January 2018, 20:44   #20
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajanuma View Post
I managed to get a copy from Buteo Books in the US, with the cost of shipping to Italy it came out rather expensive, but it is a very good book. The texts are superb, on par with the Schulenberg et al Peru guide, concise yet very informative and authoritative, with proper attention paid to geographic variation and vocalizations. The maps use dots to mark confirmed records and color shading to mark expected distribution, which I think works very well. With 6 principal illustrators and another 7 artists contributing illustrations, it's no surprise that the plates are a little uneven, but on the whole they are quite good. The ones by Tofte are some of the very best illustrations of Neotropical birds anywhere, for some groups (e.g. raptors) perhaps THE best. I quite like JQ Vidoz's plates as well, although his style is strikingly different from that of Tofte. The other plates range from pretty good to a very few that are downright terrible (a couple of the manakins), but the worst ones are for birds that are very distinctive and easy to identify, so are not really a problem. I get the sense that printing quality for the plates could have been better, and this contributed to a less-than-stellar first impression, but after spending some time studying the book I really came to appreciate just how good it is.

Given the history of this book and its overall quality, I think the title of this thread is a little unfair.
The title isn't unfair, it's not aimed at the publishers, the cost of the book if you could get it, is less than half of what is being charged in Europe.

A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 8th January 2018, 20:47   #21
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by RafaelMatias View Post
I guess printing it in the Northern Hemisphere would have made the book more expensive for people in Bolivia, whom were their main target "audience". And you'd need to travel to say, Spain or the UK, to take care upclose of the printing process (quality check, choosing the right paper, etc...). But maybe there were other completely different reasons behind their choice?
No Rafael,
you print on both sides of the planet as is routinely done with European and American versions of the same book!

To make it cheaper, it needs to have a version printed in Europe, the original charity would still make plenty of money but those who want it would get it at a fair price and it would probably address any quality issues?

A

Last edited by andyadcock : Tuesday 9th January 2018 at 16:52.
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 9th January 2018, 11:05   #22
Melanie
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Kassel, Germany
Posts: 2,686
Maybe we should wait for the ebook. This might be cheaper to create and will have a wider distribution.
Melanie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 9th January 2018, 15:42   #23
Swissboy
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019
 
Swissboy's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sempach, Switzerland
Posts: 3,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie View Post
Maybe we should wait for the ebook. This might be cheaper to create and will have a wider distribution.
I notice how little ebooks appeal to me! I'm definitely a bibliophile.
__________________
Robert
--PS: That's a Sooty Falcon on the avatar, photo taken near Sharm el Sheik, Egypt. My highest priority raptor at the time.
What's your species on the avatar? I often have no clue
!
Swissboy is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 9th January 2018, 16:51   #24
andyadcock
Registered User
 
andyadcock's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Nottingham UK and St Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 13,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swissboy View Post
I notice how little ebooks appeal to me! I'm definitely a bibliophile.
And me!!!!


A
andyadcock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 9th January 2018, 18:18   #25
gdhunter
Registered User
 
gdhunter's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Abilene, Texas
Posts: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swissboy View Post
I notice how little ebooks appeal to me! I'm definitely a bibliophile.
Often a sure provocation to the digital advocates out there to move the thread in a different direction. Remember: Birds of Bolivia!

Gary H
gdhunter is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Birds of Bolivia Fritz73 Books, Magazines, Publications, Video & DVD 61 Wednesday 23rd August 2017 07:14
Help for Id this cat (Bolivia) Glimmer Mammals 3 Wednesday 2nd September 2015 22:22
Birds of Bolivia ririhugs Books, Magazines, Publications, Video & DVD 7 Wednesday 7th September 2011 22:23
Birds of Bolivia ririhugs Books, Magazines, Publications, Video & DVD 4 Wednesday 25th November 2009 20:04
Birds of Bolivia zoltannemeth Books, Magazines, Publications, Video & DVD 2 Wednesday 28th May 2008 23:48

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.29160690 seconds with 37 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 15:20.