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Old Wednesday 18th December 2019, 10:43   #26
Chosun Juan
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This is a bit light on for details - but particularly important in Australia to separate grazing stock from riparian areas via fencing and piped alternate watering points.
https://www.queenslandcountrylife.co...UDkNqkSZfi5plg





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Old Monday 3rd February 2020, 06:06   #27
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Question If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

This system is based on rewilding and free roaming herds ....
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...XI-m_gCOJDFoTg

Such an agricultural practice was the ruination of the Australian landscape. I don't think free roaming herds in the absence of predatory pressure could be good for any landscape long term, but I would be very interested to know:-

* How British /European soils differ from ours such that continual disturbance by these hooved animals can be good for the soil and ecosystem long term .... ?

* Given that in the absence of external influences the animals will always go to their preferred vegetation first and camp in preferred areas - how does this not wear these areas out long term, or lead to extinction of the most palatable species and reduced biodiversity .... ?






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Old Monday 3rd February 2020, 11:36   #28
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In a large chunk of the world, ungulates were the dominant herbivores, so ecosystems are pre-adapted to them. As long as you don't pen them into "small" areas or keep them at unreasonable densities, it can work. Australia never had ungulates, so presumably that is the problem right there. Now they did have plenty of large herbivores, but the environments they inhabited are so far removed from the environment that the first Australian European settlers arrived to that they are not really comparable.
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Old Tuesday 11th February 2020, 05:00   #29
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Lightbulb Destructive farming is the issue — not whether you eat meat or vegetables

https://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/li...uPuWjJ0pNyhFLA

Even then, Regenerative Agriculture still needs to allocate ~ 30% of land area (according to McIntyre et al.) to untouched natural biodiversity habitats ........ It's not at all as simple as the reductionist simplification of swapping hamburgers for vegeburgers ......




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Old Saturday 23rd May 2020, 06:09   #30
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Question Saturated trees and carbon rationing

Interesting ..... in terms of the eternal dance between forests and grasslands, the effects of man (not to mention his crucially unmentioned impacts on the hydrological cycle) , science, knowledge, and perhaps effort expended on solutions to problems which may or may not exist.

The follow on from that of course, is equity, unwelcome control and costs to the individual, and distortion of markets.

Interesting also for grazing lands (especially resumed former woodlands) and carbon sequestration and the all important soil building, moisture retention, and wildlife habitat.

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...imate/12141174







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Old Friday 29th May 2020, 00:53   #31
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When we were kicked out of Eden - we didn't get a re-entry pass

To your original point about going beyond 80% restoration Chosun - it does not seem likely to me that going much beyond that would be possible if introducing a major new component - i.e. hard-hooved cattle - where they never were before has any likelihood of reaching 100% restoration - its too big a change - especially in a specialised habitat. Even without the cattle it may not be possible depending on what has been lost that we perhaps don't know about.

On the other hand restoration of e.g. prairie or other habitats which did see large concentrations of herbivores it might be more viable to return closer to the original state.
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Old Saturday 30th May 2020, 11:55   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKinHK View Post
To your original point about going beyond 80% restoration Chosun - it does not seem likely to me that going much beyond that would be possible if introducing a major new component - i.e. hard-hooved cattle - where they never were before has any likelihood of reaching 100% restoration - its too big a change - especially in a specialised habitat. Even without the cattle it may not be possible depending on what has been lost that we perhaps don't know about.

On the other hand restoration of e.g. prairie or other habitats which did see large concentrations of herbivores it might be more viable to return closer to the original state.
I would have to imagine that invasive plants are going to be the biggest issue with trying to return thing to a "natural" baseline. At least cattle and other ungulates are big and physically easy to eliminate.
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Old Saturday 30th May 2020, 14:01   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysticete View Post
In a large chunk of the world, ungulates were the dominant herbivores, so ecosystems are pre-adapted to them. As long as you don't pen them into "small" areas or keep them at unreasonable densities, it can work. Australia never had ungulates, so presumably that is the problem right there. Now they did have plenty of large herbivores, but the environments they inhabited are so far removed from the environment that the first Australian European settlers arrived to that they are not really comparable.
Not read the whole thread in detail so some nice random thoughts which are probably out of order:
  • Like earlier poster, I've always been unclear why Australians don't farm kangaroos and other marsupials if they're interested in sustainability and meat. Suspect you can attain high densities with semi-natural conditions if you just give supplementary water
  • Although in N Am, Asia and esp. Africa the flora has evolved to survive with ungulates (Oz flora famously hasn't: marsupials are soft-footed and mostly light weight), I wonder what role the grazers have in "climax", "unmodified" habitats in many of these places. I think the consensus was that much of Europe had savanna-like appearance when I was at university for example: kept open by grazers. But reading up on European bison recently persuaded me this wasn't the case: major impacts of herbivores were probably limited to particular areas such as near water. If so, this has implications for stock densities etc
  • It's obvious that the large expenses of many threatened habitats we see are the result of artificial practices such as grazing
  • In S Am at least, the returns you get from stock may well be far less than you'd get from other forms of agriculture. A reason cattle are popular is you need so few employees to manage them and they require little supervision. So you can run 2,000 head with <3 people (forget actual no. but based on actual example). You can live in city and only visit ranch once every 6 weeks: so fairly minimal effort
  • I'm persuaded that if we really must have meat from cattle then intensive pen production is the short term way to go. Longer term, tissue culture or "lab" meat. Obviously the former ignores animal welfare concerns.
  • Broadly, talk of "sustainable" is hogwash. To evaluate re-wilding etc we have to decide what we're trying to maximise (the objective) and whether the proposal will achieve this.
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Old Saturday 30th May 2020, 14:07   #34
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I would have to imagine that invasive plants are going to be the biggest issue with trying to return thing to a "natural" baseline. At least cattle and other ungulates are big and physically easy to eliminate.
Yes, except that Oz is huge... Maybe drones offer something cheaper than choppers, if equipped with guns...

And then there's the rabbits
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