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Have Nikon given up competing with the big three? (1 Viewer)

.............Good to hear you love your E2s, Sancho, but that kind of binocular (sublime optical quality, but apparently at the cost of water resistance, ergonomics, size, eye relief, ruggedness and frankly sex appeal) doesn't intrigue me anymore........
Thanks for the replies everyone, and sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I've been moving house.
It's just a retro-thing, Dorian Gray....I don't think I'd like the E2's to be my only pair of bins, just in case it rains......I hope the house-move went well (make sure the portrait goes in the attic first thing;)). Thanks for a very interesting thread.
 
Why are they hundreds of pounds cheaper then? ;) Presumably because Nikon can make more profit selling them at that price than they would by selling fewer binoculars at prices equal to the top competition. It would seem that Nikon do not believe their own products are as good as their competitors, or surely they'd price them accordingly.

I think Nikon make first rate binoculars (and scopes) which compete head on with other brands in most market segments.

One characteristic of Japanese optics is that they often significantly undercut European brands - for which read Leica and Zeiss - whilst providing most of the performance, though in a few cases the best Nikon lenses match Zeiss, for less money.

I don't know why this should be so, and the story is similar for cars (automobiles) and other goods, but clearly the Japanese are very good at manufacturing goods to a price and quality. It might just be that they are good at investing in appropriate equipment such as CNC machines, or that the workforce is very good in terms of attention to detail. I have also heard that they are very good at using modern management methods to ensure that quality is built in to the product.

Getting back to the ranch, Nikon is a huge company with large resources, and considerable expertise in optics, so it is not surprising they can produce good optics.

I wonder if anyone has any more information on the new Nikon binoculars said to be due soon?
 
"No, I doubt it. Nikon has a history of being slow and deliberate with photography and sports optics product releases, especially at the top end. When they do come out with something new at the top it usually represents a significant advance over the previous model." APS

You know you're stuff... spot on!

" It would seem that Nikon do not believe their own products are as good as their competitors, or surely they'd price them accordingly" Dorian Gray

That's a silly thing to say...
Companies design and produce products to meet price points and the margin they need to make is figured before. Nikon knows who they're up against and I bet the extra $500 spent on Leica, Zeiss or Swarovski is exchange rate... nothing more. Nikon makes money selling LXL's. Any company that would produce a product and then price it for what they hope they could get wouldn't be in business long.

Funny, but the meat of the bino market is most likely the $129-$389 range and Nikon has that covered well.

Nikon is a smart company for sure

Cheers
 
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We might then surmise that Nikon have abandoned their Porro attack, were it not for the lamentable state of their roof-prism line. The 32 and 42 mm HG L DCF binoculars are well-rounded products, but not brilliant enough to compete on an equal footing with the Ultravids and ELs and Victory FLs of this world. They are optically good, but Nikon are capable of better, in my opinion.

you might like to read this ALULA review... http://www.alula.fi/gb/

they consider the HG 8 x 32 to be the best birding bins available with the best resolution score and better contrast (even better than 8.5 ELs) of any bin they've ever tested. Price isn't everything. Although these bins were initially marketed at well over £1000... The new Ultravids and FLs are good but are they 'better' or worth the exhorbitant price?
 
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oleaf said:
Companies design and produce products to meet price points and the margin they need to make is figured before.
Well, except for duties to the shareholders, companies don't have a "margin they need to make". They price their products to maximise profit: the more the merrier. Nikon's High Grade binoculars used to be much more expensive than they are now; the price has come down because Nikon can make more profit by selling more binoculars at a lower margin, i.e. they couldn't sell enough at Zeiss-like prices, for the simple reason that customers prefer to buy Zeiss (or Leica or Swarovski) at that price.

Tim Allwood said:
they consider the HG 8 x 32 to be the best birding bins available with the best resolution score and better contrast (even better than 8.5 ELs) of any bin they've ever tested.
"Contrast" as used above seems to refer to suppression of flare and ghosting, i.e. the ability of the binocular to suppress stray light and therefore preserve deep blacks. Macro-contrast is a good term for this overall contrast. Good macro-contrast is a consequence of high quality coatings, judicious use of stray-light baffles, the complex interaction of the geometry of the various optical elements, and to a lesser extent (in these days of good coatings), few glass-air surfaces.

"Resolution" is a poor indicator of performance, though measuring ultimate resolution at boosted magnifications seems to be a widely used testing method. But our perception of "sharpness" has very little to do with ultimate resolution (this is why we can see clear differences between binoculars that all have ultimate resolutions far beyond our eye's resolving limit).

Our perception of sharpness is instead based on a combination of both resolution and localised contrast (or micro-contrast). It is much more important for a binocular to offer very high contrast transfer (as close to 100% as possible) at moderate spatial frequencies than very low (but just discernible with boosted magnification) contrast at resolutions far in excess of what the eye is capable of seeing. By testing for ultimate resolution we discover the highest frequency at which the binocular is capable of transferring some very low contrast value (perhaps 5 or 10%). This isn't completely useless because there is some correlation between high ultimate resolution and high contrast at low spatial frequencies. But it's quite possible for binocular A to achieve a higher resolution at 5% contrast than binocular B, yet for B to offer higher contrast at useful resolutions (i.e. those visible without boosted magnification). In this case B will have higher perceived sharpness than A despite having lower ultimate resolution.

I used Photoshop to make a little example of this resolution-versus-contrast idea. Click here to open two side-by-side images made from a single high-resolution photograph. Each image as presented is 512 pixels wide, but I resized the one on the left to a mere 256 pixels in Photoshop, then resized it back to 512 pixels, then applied a very aggressive unsharp mask (which increases localised contrast). The one on the right was resized from the original to 512 pixels (and no sharpening applied). This means the image on the right has approximately twice the resolution of the one on the left. Predictably, if you observe the photos closely, more detail reveals itself in the image on the right. However, if you walk back from your screen to a certain distance, perhaps about 2 metres (6 ft), the image on the left will appear sharper! Despite its much lower resolution, its higher localised contrast gives it a higher sharpness. The image on the right, viewed from 2 metres, is like the image from binocular A, while the one on the left (at 2 metres) represents the view from binocular B.

The Nikon HG binoculars suffer from fairly severe chromatic aberration despite their generally good optical performance. Chromatic aberrations reduce micro-contrast by breaking white light from a point into its component wavelengths and spreading it over a wider area. For example, if you observe a power line from a sufficient distance for it to appear as a thin dark line against a white sky, any chromatic aberration will reduce the contrast of the line due to light from the sky being misdirected into the black area of the line, rendering it brighter (less black). If the line is thin enough you won't be able to observe false colour in it, but you will nevertheless notice a reduction in contrast (consequently causing the line to appear less sharp). A binocular with very low chromatic aberration will render the line blacker and more crisply.

I don't deny the Nikon HG L binoculars are a truly excellent value for money, but they certainly don't match the optical quality of the Zeiss Victory FL binoculars, which are probably the best roof-prism binoculars on the market by the sole criteria of optical performance.
 
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Just in case people wonder, the review quoted by Tim above was written & published before the Zeiss FL and Leica Ultravid ranges were introduced. I fully agree with Dorian Gray on the usefulness of low chromatic aberration for maximizing both perceived contrast and perceived sharpness.

Also, a comment to Dorian Gray's analysis concerning contrast at different spatial frequencies and the usefulness/uselessness of boosted resolution figures. In practice I find that boosted resolution results have a good correlation with "micro-contrast" as well as "macro-contrast". This is largely because the chief reasons for less-than-optimal resolution in binoculars is a smaller or larger number of optical aberrations resulting from manufacturing and assembly tolerances, and these usually combine to cause enough "light spillover" from the ideal overlapping Airy discs to reduce overall contrast markedly as well.

As has been said, there are some credible rumors around that Nikon will introduce new binoculars in the near future, and we can hope that these will include HD lens elements as well as dielectric prism coatings.

Kimmo
 
I have a pair of 8x32 HGLs and agree with every word of DG's comments on chromatic aberration. I too regard the HGLs as one class below not just the FLs, but also the Ultravids and Swarovskis. This is probably inevitable because Nikon does not use the more modern coatings referred to by Kimmo.
For me it's longer distance birding, notably watching ducks on water, where the binoculars' failings show. Good-value bins, but not of the highest class. I'm surprised they are often said to be in the same class, or even better, than their European rivals.

Sean
 
The Nikon HG binoculars suffer from fairly severe chromatic aberration despite their generally good optical performance.

I don't deny the Nikon HG L binoculars are a truly excellent value for money, but they certainly don't match the optical quality of the Zeiss Victory FL binoculars, which are probably the best roof-prism binoculars on the market by the sole criteria of optical performance.

I agree that the 8x32 HG has excessive CA, and I sold mine, at a loss within a month or two of purchase. But many/most people do not seem to see it. IMO most top end bins have excessive CA, but that is very subjective, and most people do not seem to agree. I think there is more to this issue than simple numbers.

I recall that there was a lot of disbelief that using an extra low dispersion element in the objective could help reduce CA, on the grounds that the objectives are so small. I assume the cause is either the single element focussing lens, or as someone (Henry?) suggested, shorter focal length objectives. It's a shame that no-one has done calculations to try and throw light on the subject, so to speak.

To be honest I'm not convinced that the best optical quality is necessary to achieve high sales.
 
Yes, this helps me understand, too. I have the 8x32 LX, and in most aspects they are great, but when I first got them the CA just blew me away! Most of the time, I like them well enough, but when I got my FL's (10's), well, the difference was very noticeable. I did read reviews, first that they bettered the older Trinovid 32's and the review where you took them up, Kimmo. I don't think at the time I was just aware that your review predated the more recent innovations by two of the "top 3." I am happy enough, mind you, and got them at less than half the price of my discounted Zeiss. No complaints there, but Nikon does need to catch up now, and I look forward to their new designs. David
 
The best roof binoculars made in Japan today are the Kowa Genesis 8.5x44 and 10.5x44. The Kowa's compare quite well with the first edition Nikon HG's with respect to weight and durability, but are optically more advanced because of the expertly treated reduction of CA. Their resolution, contrast and colour fidelity are top notch.

cheers,

Renze
 
The best roof binoculars made in Japan today are the Kowa Genesis 8.5x44 and 10.5x44. The Kowa's compare quite well with the first edition Nikon HG's with respect to weight and durability, but are optically more advanced because of the expertly treated reduction of CA. Their resolution, contrast and colour fidelity are top notch.

cheers,

Renze

Any ideas how the Kowa compares, optically, to the "Big 3"?
 
The Kowa 8.5x44, which is the type I own, performs on par, or better, with Zeiss 8x42 FL, Swarovski 8.5x42 EL and Leica Ultravid 8x42. The only difference will be that the Zeiss and Swaro add a touch of luxury in the way that their Field of View is slightly larger, and so their Apparent Angle of View, which gives an indication of the naturalness of the viewing experience, will be a bit better (59 deg, against 62 and 65). Note however that the Swaro, which performs best in this respect, is not ED (or HD, or FL) treated yet, and so lagging behind the Kowa's performance on CA, contrast, resolution and colour neutrality.

cheers,

Renze
 
In the States, the Kowa is certainly has a premium price, even if it is about $500 less than the EL 8.5x42, and $350 less than Zeiss' 8x42 FL. Leica and Zeiss, favouring 8x42, make comparisons a little more difficult.
However, as Renze writes, it seems that ED, FL or HD glass makes a difference, putting those binoculars in a special class. Even that little bit of extra FOV means something, even if it is just a "relaxed" or natural view. Another matter of importance is the customer service, which varies from country.
I wonder if there will be an 8x32 Genesis, which would put Kowa in the most popular and competitive format.

At the moment, I would write that the Nikon HG, as well as the Swarovski lines are obsolescent because of the lack of ED, FL or HD glass. Such is clearly evident from Renze's comments.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :brains:
 
At the moment, I would write that the Nikon HG, as well as the Swarovski lines are obsolescent because of the lack of ED, FL or HD glass.

Yikes, I hope you mean obsolescent in its softer, fashion-related sense! It's talk like this that should prove to casual readers of Birdforum that we are crazy--not to be trusted when it comes to keeping a sense of perspective and for sane optical advice. There was a time when the optics of binoculars were deficient in different enough ways that, at least in certain situations, the model selected could make or break my ability to identify birds. The optical differences between models had dramatic practical consequences. I'd say this is still the case when comparing mid-priced roofs to the top models. I can see the differences in CA control and color rendition in the Zeiss FL versus the Nikon, Swarovski and Leica (non HD) binoculars, and I enjoy crazy good optics (and hope for continued improvement) as much as anyone, but I really can't say that the optics of these models is different enough to make or break IDs for me. The CA control, color rendition, and contrast is so good (esp in the center), even in the nonED/HD/FL models, that their optical limitations are for me, for all practical purposes, beyond my limit to resolve enough detail to identify distant birds (that is, I feel I'm bumping up against the limits of magnification and hand holding, not image quality. On a tripod, perhaps I'd feel differently, but I'm not confident of that.) This is in spite of the fact that my corrected vision is approximately 20/12. What I _do_ find relevant to bird ID success are the handling differences between models, including how easy it is to get the bird in view (affected by sensitivity to eye placement, focusing precision/speed, flatness of field etc). As birding tools, I don't find the top-end nonED/HG/FL binoculars in the least bit obsolescent. In fact, they are probably superior to the FL, Genesis, and Audubon ED for many users. If the Zeiss FL had been released before the Swarovski EL, I'd have still bought the latter and have considered it a step up as a birding binocular. I'd argue that the difference in optical quality between those models is much less than the Nikon 8x32 SE versus the Leica 8x32 Ultra/Trinovid, but I bought the latter to replace the former for birding use and have not had a reason based on my subsequent experience/use to question that decision despite the clear optical superiority of the SE.

--AP
 
Hello everyone, this is my first post.
I owned a pair of the original Nikon e's for about 10 years and loved the image quality, and the HUGE field of view. I never minded the nerdy look or the fact that they were not waterproof, the 'deal breaker' for me was the continually migrating diopter. IMO not having solid diopter adjustments on a product of this class is completely unacceptable. Why have the best optics in the world if you can't experience them? I eventually sold them online and bought a pair of Swift Ultralite 8x42 roofs, which may have been a downgrade in several areas, but are much quicker focusing and much more rugged.
Anyway, I have ordered a pair of Leupold 8x42 HD's from Cabela's and am patiently waiting for the chance to see what they are all about...
 
At the moment, I would write that the Nikon HG, as well as the Swarovski lines are obsolescent because of the lack of ED, FL or HD glass. Such is clearly evident from Renze's comments.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood


Please!Please! Send me all your Nikon LX,LXL , Swarovski SLC and EL binoculars.:)
Regards,Steve
 
Hello everyone, this is my first post.
I owned a pair of the original Nikon e's for about 10 years and loved the image quality, and the HUGE field of view. I never minded the nerdy look or the fact that they were not waterproof, the 'deal breaker' for me was the continually migrating diopter. IMO not having solid diopter adjustments on a product of this class is completely unacceptable. Why have the best optics in the world if you can't experience them? I eventually sold them online and bought a pair of Swift Ultralite 8x42 roofs, which may have been a downgrade in several areas, but are much quicker focusing and much more rugged.
Anyway, I have ordered a pair of Leupold 8x42 HD's from Cabela's and am patiently waiting for the chance to see what they are all about...[/QUOTE

You must have had an odd one! I have 2 8 x 30 EII's and a 10 x 35 EII and a 10 x 42SE. All have diopter rings that are more than acceptably stiff. They do not move once set. Even after 10 years, if you had sent your binocular back to Nikon, they would have corrected the problem. They wouldn't have charged you more than $25.00. Their warranty is transferable also. Did you have the original 8 x 30 E or the later model EII?

BTW, welcome to Bird Forum!

Cordially,
Bob
 
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Bob, thanx for the welcome! I guess it goes back to that 'how each individual interacts with a particular pair of bins' thing. I have deep set eyes so maybe that is why mine moved. The diopter was plenty stiff, it just moved ever so slightly one way or another which was an annoyance to me, I used a rubber o-ring on them for many years to keep them in place and that worked very well. I like the click stops on my new ones because I know exactly where they are supposed to be set and it is easy to check. I do wish I could have kept them because they were wonderful to look through, but I wanted to buy a scope after I got the Swifts, so the wife said they had to go.
 
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