Misplaced Value (1 Viewer)

WJC · Oct 31, 2018

Be warned: This is about “sour grapes”! Hopefully, though, it will teach something useful.

Now living in a small house in southern Idaho—and downsizing in preparation for my dirt nap—I have been trying to divest of some binos taken in trade for repair and collimation work, years ago. And although I have been pricing them well below their value, I find people staying away in droves. Names like Canon, Minolta, Pentax, and Swift don’t seem to mean much these days, if they’re attached to Porro instruments.

It seems people don’t realize that:

— to a point, Porros provide better depth perception.
— a roof prism binocular needs to have the more expensive anti-phase shifting coatings to equal the contrast of a Porro unit. Or ...
— repairability and customer service might be a little better for instruments from a company with a 70+ year track record than from a Taiwanese company that has been in business for a few months but might not be, tomorrow.

All that glitters is not gold.

One photo attached is of a can opener we bought and have replaced 3 times since moving to Twin Falls, three years ago. The cost totals $14.91 plus tax. Each time one failed us, we reached for the opener in the other photo—one we bought for $0.69 the year we were married, 40 years ago. It is not modern, stylish or anything else noteworthy. But for 40 years, it has been filling the measure of its creation, flawlessly. And if it ever gives up its mechanical ghost, we will replace it with another just like it, although the next one might cost a whole ... dollar. :cat:

In the immortal words of that paragon of wisdom—the Wicked Witch of The West:

“What a world; what a world!”

Just a thought,

Bill

wdc · Oct 31, 2018

Bill, Can you tell me how many of those binoculars have a minimum IPD of 56mm and 18 mm of eye relief?

Scridifer · Oct 31, 2018

Love the cartoon Bill, and yup, you can't beat the old-fashioned butterfly tin opener!

Chris

WJC · Oct 31, 2018

wdc said:
Bill, Can you tell me how many of those binoculars have a minimum IPD of 56mm and 18 mm of eye relief?

Hi, WDC:

They all have 58mm; the Canon has a 56mm. I feel confident NONE will have an eye relief of 18mm—I didn’t measure. They were all made before all but a handful of folks were even concerned about ER. I could easily be satisfied with a 12mm, although I have a Nikon SE. Some folks demand a long ER and, when they get one, immediately start complaining about the blackouts caused by the longer ER. :cat:

Bill

PS This post was not about selling binos, but to point out what I consider sometimes to be folly. If you were considering one of mine, the Eagle Bait ads explain all. If you need more, contact me offline: [email protected]. I will be trying to get rid of more in the coming year.

wllmspd · Oct 31, 2018

Ought to find one of those tin openers... have got through several modern looking ones. Would not be looking for another garlic press but I tried to press some ginger with it.

Peter

wdc · Oct 31, 2018

WJC said:
Hi, WDC:

They all have 58mm; the Canon has a 56mm. I feel confident NONE will have an eye relief of 18mm—I didn’t measure. They were all made before all but a handful of folks were even concerned about ER. I could easily be satisfied with a 12mm, although I have a Nikon SE. Some folks demand a long ER and, when they get one, immediately start complaining about the blackouts caused by the longer ER. :cat:

Bill

PS This post was not about selling binos, but to point out what I consider sometimes to be folly. If you were considering one of mine, the Eagle Bait ads explain all. If you need more, contact me offline: [email protected]. I will be trying to get rid of more in the coming year.

Hi Bill, Thanks for all the information. I just happen to be one of those 'handful of folks' when it comes to IPD and eye relief. I'm slightly cross eyed, so need to push the eyepieces a bit closer to unify the images. And I wear glasses, which requires 'x' amount of eye relief. I use 18mm as a ball park, because the manufacturer's specs seem to be unique to the manufacturer, not to an external reference standard in any consistent fashion.
(blame it on the eyecups, perhaps).

I had, still have, some porros that I purchased in the 90's for astronomy, and in the mid-2000's, but they aren't so useful for birding due to close focus, and eye relief, now that I use glasses when viewing.

I would be happy to avail myself of the great, vintage porros that are out there to bird with if they fit me, but so far, have not found any that do, unfortunately.

-Bill (WDC)

moose1991 · Oct 31, 2018

This is one of the best tin openers ever, even cheaper than the butterfly type.

wllmspd · Oct 31, 2018

moose.. tried one, broke it and nearly had my finger off... may have been a cheap knockoff thought. Bills design is easier to use.

Peter

WJC · Oct 31, 2018

wdc said:
Hi Bill, Thanks for all the information. I just happen to be one of those 'handful of folks' when it comes to IPD and eye relief. I'm slightly cross eyed, so need to push the eyepieces a bit closer to unify the images. And I wear glasses, which requires 'x' amount of eye relief. I use 18mm as a ball park, because the manufacturer's specs seem to be unique to the manufacturer, not to an external reference standard in any consistent fashion.
(blame it on the eyecups, perhaps).

I had, still have, some porros that I purchased in the 90's for astronomy, and in the mid-2000's, but they aren't so useful for birding due to close focus, and eye relief, now that I use glasses when viewing.

I would be happy to avail myself of the great, vintage porros that are out there to bird with if they fit me, but so far, have not found any that do, unfortunately.

-Bill (WDC)

Hi, Bill:

I have a 39-year old son with strabismus and wears glasses. Been there; done that. He was operated on by one of the best—Zane Pollard, of Atlanta. He was only corrected to 7 degrees, though. :cat:

Cheers,

Bill

Patudo · Nov 1, 2018

It could be that the majority of binocular buyers prefer the compactness and handiness of roof glasses more than contrast and "3D"; or that others are simply offering the same or similar product, in comparable condition, for less. Incidentally, what customer service could one expect from the likes of Minolta, which went out of business over a decade ago, or for conventional Canon porros which were discontinued long before that?

Ebay is convenient, and has global reach - but it's a bit of a buyer's market... unless you're offering something collectors are willing to pay for (like, say, a Nikon SE). I've been able to purchase some nice optics from the Bay at prices I was quite happy with - but they'll probably fetch exactly the same, or maybe less, should I sell. I ought to try and find somewhere folks are willing to pay something closer to what I think their value is - Cloudynights maybe? :cat:

WJC · Nov 1, 2018

Patudo said:
It could be that the majority of binocular buyers prefer the compactness and handiness of roof glasses more than contrast and "3D"; or that others are simply offering the same or similar product, in comparable condition, for less. Incidentally, what customer service could one expect from the likes of Minolta, which went out of business over a decade ago, or for conventional Canon porros which were discontinued long before that?

Ebay is convenient, and has global reach - but it's a bit of a buyer's market... unless you're offering something collectors are willing to pay for (like, say, a Nikon SE). I've been able to purchase some nice optics from the Bay at prices I was quite happy with - but they'll probably fetch exactly the same, or maybe less, should I sell. I ought to try and find somewhere folks are willing to pay something closer to what I think their value is - Cloudynights maybe? :cat:

For any repairs the company can't/won't cover, there's always Cory. He could do most of it in his sleep. :cat:

Bill

Binastro · Nov 1, 2018

The advantage of buying any binocular from an established repairer is that it will be in collimation, if stated to be so.
This to me doubles the price I would pay.
I would of course ask that the binocular is well packed for being used as a football by the courier.

Whether it can be repaired by the original maker is also of no consequence to me. If it breaks it breaks. It can be replaced.

This is for binoculars of say £100 to £150 or less.
More than that, I would expect a robust binocular, especially if a Porroprism.

About half of the binoculars I use are Porroprism. It doesn't matter what type they are.
Also I don't use glasses with binoculars. Most modern binoculars have far too much eye relief, and too small fields of view, for me.

So called fine binoculars that I have bought even from friends, have internal slight haze, possible fungus, are out of alignment even slightly, and are actually worthless, as repairs cost more than they are worth.

If one can get a binocular from a repair expert that is the one to buy.

WJC · Nov 1, 2018

Binastro said:
The advantage of buying any binocular from an established repairer is that it will be in collimation, if stated to be so.
This to me doubles the price I would pay.
I would of course ask that the binocular is well packed for being used as a football by the courier.

Whether it can be repaired by the original maker is also of no consequence to me. If it breaks it breaks. It can be replaced.

This is for binoculars of say £100 to £150 or less.
More than that, I would expect a robust binocular, especially if a Porroprism.

About half of the binoculars I use are Porroprism. It doesn't matter what type they are.
Also I don't use glasses with binoculars. Most modern binoculars have far too much eye relief, and too small fields of view, for me.

So called fine binoculars that I have bought even from friends, have internal slight haze, possible fungus, are out of alignment even slightly, and are actually worthless, as repairs cost more than they are worth.

If one can get a binocular from a repair expert that is the one to buy.

Hi, Binastro:

But, when it comes to alignment, so many of the binocular experts ... AREN’T. That’s why 100% of the “collimation articles” on the Internet just deal with conditional alignment and not collimation. They may come across as if—with much pride—they have just discovered a flawless, 10-minute lobotomy. However, there’s 3-axis binocular collimation and a number of other screw-tweaking ego builders designed to promote CoAl. Take your pick. If the error is small and your spatial accommodation is adequate, it may work as well as collimation ... at least at one IPD. But the willy-nilly screw tweakers are, across the board, doing observers a disservice. :cat:

Bill

Binastro · Nov 1, 2018

I am well aware of that, but presumably if you say that a binocular is well collimated, it is.

That doubles its monetary value.

I have bought binoculars that are in alignment for me, but the fields are horribly out of wack.
I can use them, but I don't feel relaxed using them.

Some other binoculars were claimed to be collimated and clearly aren't. It could be the courier knocked them out, or they just were not collimated in the first place.
I just write these off, and don't fret about them.
Life is too short.

I also have a 25-135x80 (marked 25x-125x80) Porroprism binocular that is in alignment for all powers for me, but runs out of steam at 80x.
Binocular mounted of course, and interesting, but a scope is much better for high powers.
What is surprising is that this binocular is well aligned for me at all magnifications, and not bad at 80x.

WJC · Nov 1, 2018

Binastro said:
I am well aware of that, but presumably if you say that a binocular is well collimated, it is.

That doubles its monetary value.

I have bought binoculars that are in alignment for me, but the fields are horribly out of wack.
I can use them, but I don't feel relaxed using them.

Some other binoculars were claimed to be collimated and clearly aren't. It could be the courier knocked them out, or they just were not collimated in the first place.
I just write these off, and don't fret about them.
Life is too short.

I also have a 25-135x80 (marked 25x-125x80) Porroprism binocular that is in alignment for all powers for me, but runs out of steam at 80x.
Binocular mounted of course, and interesting, but a scope is much better for high powers.
What is surprising is that this binocular is well aligned for me at all magnifications, and not bad at 80x.

When I arrived at Captain’s in the winter of 1987, I had to bite my tongue as their “optical technician” taught me “the ropes.” Two weeks later, when he left the company, I started spending the first half of the day cleaning up my workspace and the back hallway that they used as a catch-all.

During that time, I found the Mk 5’s auxiliary telescope half way down in a box of “scrap brass” in the back. Since you can’t collimate a binocular without this critical piece, I wondered how he had been collimating them. As his words and deeds had been directing me, I easily saw he hadn’t! He was clueless. Not at all a bad fellow ... just optically clueless.

When he left, and the shop was mine, I started going over his repair work. One piece of Japanese junk had a $120 repair tag on it (remember this was November 1987) but was out of collimation by almost 3 degrees along the X axis, alone. I collimated it in less than 15 minutes and dropped the price to $45.
With one exception, no better man had ever walked the earth than the owner of the company. But he understood charts, navigation, and compass adjusting—not optics.

All over both our countries the story is the same. And as long as people are easily impressed, and pontification is easier than research, it will remain so. Fortunately for you, you have Tony, Gary, and a few others. Over here the well-experienced techs are even thinner. :cat:

Bill

Patudo · Nov 1, 2018

Binastro said:
The advantage of buying any binocular from an established repairer is that it will be in collimation, if stated to be so.
This to me doubles the price I would pay...

This is for binoculars of say £100 to £150 or less.
More than that, I would expect a robust binocular, especially if a Porroprism.

...So called fine binoculars that I have bought even from friends, have internal slight haze, possible fungus, are out of alignment even slightly, and are actually worthless, as repairs cost more than they are worth.

If one can get a binocular from a repair expert that is the one to buy.

If I read the above right, an 8x30 Jena Deltrintem - which can still be obtained for about 75 to 80 GBP - would be worth 150 GBP or more to you if stated to be in collimation by a repair expert (and how would one validate that from an Ebay seller)? I think all of us would choose a binocular offered by such an expert, all other things being equal, but to pay double - not for my money, thanks. The bills I've received for having binoculars of that type worked on to my satisfaction have not come close to doubling what I paid for them, and about half of the old porros I've bought needed no work at all.

For my part, a truly fine binocular is very far from being worthless even if it suffers from haze, fungus that doesn't etch the glass, or is out of collimation. I have, and would again, buy what I consider a fine binocular that needed any or all of these to be put right - but at the right price, of course.

Binastro · Nov 2, 2018

I have an 8x30 Deltrintem, if my spelling is correct, that was claimed to be in collimation.
It isn't by quite a long way, and I will not use it. I could have sent it back, but didn't.

Yes indeed, such a binocular at £75 to £80 is worth £140 to me if bought from a top repairer, who knows what he is doing. So long as it is the coated version.

A good repair to a Porro by a top repairer costs about £60 including secure postage, so if it is priced at £60 and needs a £60 repair it is commercially worthless.
Some people may want to buy it at £30 and think that a faulty binocular is a bargain. It isn't to me.
I may buy it as a collectable to look at, but not to use.

I had a Kodak Bantam special camera. It looked gorgeous. I never actually used it, just had it on display to look at. It did seem to be working, but I never put film in it. I would probably buy another just to look at.

I will not use a binocular that has fungus or obvious haze in it. Others may, I won't.
I have such binoculars, but don't use them.
I will not use a binocular that is out of alignment. Why should I?
If others are happy to use such binoculars that is absolutely fine.

There is another point for which I haven't really got a firm answer.
Can optics with fungus infect clean optics if stored together.
I think I have seen a note from a repairer that it can.

So I do not store optics with fungus near clean optics.

Binastro · Nov 2, 2018

A binocular with fungus does not improve, but may get worse.

My points above relate to binoculars, say from Minolta, which are usually under £100.

With high end optics costing hundreds of pounds, they may be worth repairing, but may not be also.
I have had write offs of top binoculars, which were either not repairable, or would cost £250 and still be a mess.

Of course I try to buy a used binocular in excellent condition if I can, so that there is no work needed at all.
But my experience is that one third of used binocular purchases are mistakes. If I had seen them beforehand I would not have bought them.

Patudo · Nov 6, 2018

Binastro said:
I have an 8x30 Deltrintem, if my spelling is correct, that was claimed to be in collimation.
It isn't by quite a long way, and I will not use it. I could have sent it back, but didn't.

Yes indeed, such a binocular at £75 to £80 is worth £140 to me if bought from a top repairer, who knows what he is doing. So long as it is the coated version.

A good repair to a Porro by a top repairer costs about £60 including secure postage, so if it is priced at £60 and needs a £60 repair it is commercially worthless.
Some people may want to buy it at £30 and think that a faulty binocular is a bargain. It isn't to me.
I may buy it as a collectable to look at, but not to use.

I will not use a binocular that has fungus or obvious haze in it. Others may, I won't.
I have such binoculars, but don't use them.
I will not use a binocular that is out of alignment. Why should I?

Each to his own, of course - but buying binoculars and then never using them (especially when they could be put right) seems pointless to me, unless, I suppose, you really like the look of them. I myself don't tolerate binoculars that aren't in good working order - such things are a waste of valuable space. I have perhaps been fortunate in that I have been charged somewhat less to have my binoculars done than the figures you quoted - maybe I don't send my binoculars to a "top repairer", but I've been quite happy with the results. Even the prices you mention would still be worthwhile in some cases - it really depends on the binocular in question.

Binastro said:
But my experience is that one third of used binocular purchases are mistakes. If I had seen them beforehand I would not have bought them.

I guess I've been luckier than you have. All the binoculars I have ever owned have been purchased secondhand (four sight unseen via Ebay). All but three are still with me, and I somewhat regret selling the 8x30 Jenoptem as I didn't get very much for it - it'd be useful to take to a couple of places I wouldn't want to risk my other binoculars. More than a third needed servicing, but I use three of these regularly. The enjoyment I get from them is well worth the cost of service. Infinitely more than if they were tucked away in a drawer or sitting on my mantlepiece.

I must confess I find 100GBP and less a tough segment of the market. There are some good ones there and I did get two I like very much for less than that, but there's a lot more chaff than wheat in that price range.

iveljay · Nov 9, 2018

For your can opener I would substitute my Leica M3 d/w from 1954, bought second hand donkeys years ago, somewhat battered but still works perfectly.

My Jenoptems bought new, went a year ago, they were not really a shadow of their original selves, but would still make someone happy.

I don't repair anything anymore but used to work on cameras, you tend to despair when you send something back under warranty for the second time including a note telling the repair shop how to do the job properly... should have done it myself but felt there was a principle at stake for some silly reason.

My only experience in getting bins repaired resulted in them coming back in exactly the state sent having taken my cash but not even cleaned them.

The Kodak Bantam Special was always something I lusted for the collection. Kodak cameras of the era were always well built and generally simple to fix. Unfortunately it is a rare and sought after beast - you were lucky.

Just got to go and find my can opener....

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