Trogons (1 Viewer)

andyadcock said:

The undertail certainly is, I just had another thought, a species that we saw at this site.

Tell me Rafael, do you agree that the tail feather has a green sheen to it?

Should we consider Orange-bellied although the eye ring remains a problem, it would resolve the underpart colour? I know for sure that ObT is at this site because we saw it there, treated as a race of Collared by the IOC.

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Andy, as I wrote above:

The feather is very asymmetrical making it an outer, and it's very short, making it the outermost (in my opinion), after comparing it with many photos of the species (last night). I also checked photos of all other possible Trogon species to make sure the undertail pattern (black and white) of the remaining species would also be visible from above (which it is in every case).

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The pattern shown by the outer tail feathers is the same seen either from above or below. It's not diagnostic only when seen from below. I checked that species by species as I said before.
As all other species in the above list, Orange-bellied was considered and checked as well. And as said, the pattern of the outer tail feathers seen from above is striped black and white (identical to the underside, and that is always the case in all species checked). See here for Orange-bellied.
Please check that by yourself, if you don't trust what I wrote.
The pattern of the OP bird tail feather is identical even in minor details (as the greyish subdued marbled pattern of the outer edge of the feather) to that shown by Slaty-tailed (see HBW photo, posted before). If this is not enough, then I don't know what else can be said. I'm already repeating myself.

RafaelMatias said:

Andy, as I wrote above:


The pattern shown by the outer tail feathers is the same seen either from above or below. It's not diagnostic only when seen from below. I checked that species by species as I said before.
As all other species in the above list, Orange-bellied was considered and checked as well. And as said, the pattern of the outer tail feathers seen from above is striped black and white (identical to the underside, and that is always the case in all species checked). See here for Orange-bellied.
Please check that by yourself, if you don't trust what I wrote.
The pattern of the OP bird tail feather is identical even in minor details (as the greyish subdued marbled pattern of the outer edge of the feather) to that shown by Slaty-tailed (see HBW photo, posted before). If this is not enough, then I don't know what else can be said. I'm already repeating myself.

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You're concentrating on two subtle features and ignoring two obvious ones.

Regarding the tail, you wrote 'My point with all the above is that I think tail pattern is a diagnostic criterion in trogons, isn't it?' to which I replied that the undertail is, you did not mention outer tail feathers in this remark indeed most Trogons have barred outer tail feathers.

And I am repeating myself in stating that Black-faced, is known to occur with a yellow eye ring, I've looked and can see no examples of Slaty-tailed with this feature, added to the yellow underparts which are not explained either?

andyadcock said:

You're concentrating on two subtle features and ignoring two obvious ones.

And I am repeating myself in stating that Black-faced, is known to occur with a yellow eye ring, I've looked and can see no examples of Slaty-tailed with this feature, added to the yellow underparts which are not explained either?

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Tail pattern is not exactly a subtle one. It's simply diagnostic (as in many other species).
Bare parts colours are prone to variation through the influence of many factors: age, hormonal condition, light; there are even bird species that can change bare parts colour in a matter of seconds, regulated by blood influx. So as I see it, the "minor detail", if there's one, relies on the bare part colour.
Yellow underparts: we can't see exactly the underparts, can we? We see bits of plumage that hint at what the underparts may look like. I suggested immaturity might partially explain this, but flash usage can also change hues of colours.

The tail is not a detail. It's central to this issue. if you intend to keep dismissing a diagnostic feature, please go ahead.
1 - is this not a tail feather? I think we can agree on this one. It is.
2 - Not the outermost tail feather. It is. By shape and length. Would you care and please compare its lenght to the tips of the wings, and then compare it to photos of trogons, including Slaty-tailed?
3 - the all dark colour is false. It isn't. No white is visible there whatsoever
4 - Can an immature of other Trogon species in CR show all dark feathers? Not that I know of.
5 - Is this an adult trogon of any other species with a melanistic tail? Not very likely, is it?
6 - Is there any other trogon species in CR with all dark outer tail feathers? No.

Using the Occam's razor principle, this is a Slaty-tailed Trogon.
Now, I'll move on, if you don't mind.

RafaelMatias said:

Tail pattern is not exactly a subtle one. It's simply diagnostic (as in many other species).
Bare parts colours are prone to variation through the influence of many factors: age, hormonal condition, light; there are even bird species that can change bare parts colour in a matter of seconds, regulated by blood influx. So as I see it, the "minor detail", if there's one, relies on the bare part colour.
Yellow underparts: we can't see exactly the underparts, can we? We see bits of plumage that hint at what the underparts may look like. I suggested immaturity might partially explain this, but flash usage can also change hues of colours.

The tail is not a detail. It's central to this issue. if you intend to keep dismissing a diagnostic feature, please go ahead.
1 - is this not a tail feather? I think we can agree on this one. It is.
2 - Not the outermost tail feather. It is. By shape and length. Would you care and please compare its lenght to the tips of the wings, and then compare it to photos of trogons, including Slaty-tailed?
3 - the all dark colour is false. It isn't. No white is visible there whatsoever
4 - Can an immature of other Trogon species in CR show all dark feathers? Not that I know of.
5 - Is this an adult trogon of any other species with a melanistic tail? Not very likely, is it?
6 - Is there any other trogon species in CR with all dark outer tail feathers? No.

Using the Occam's razor principle, this is a Slaty-tailed Trogon.
Now, I'll move on, if you don't mind.

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You mean a diagnostic feature like a bright yellwo eye ring and the underparts certyainly are not red.....I'll move on too if you can't have a discussion without the attitude.

You got shitty earlier when I asked about the tail feather and how you could tell it was an outer and it's not the first time with the attitude so I'm done with the crap

andyadcock said:

You mean a diagnostic feature like a bright yellwo eye ring and the underparts certyainly are not red.....I'll move on too if you can't have a discussion without the attitude

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As said, bare parts colours are prone to variation through the influence of many factors: age, hormonal condition, light.
Plumage is more stable and reliable than bare parts colour, even if both (plus, shape, jizz, calls...) should be used together. In a simple way, "plumage trumps over bare parts". Unless you have an aberrant individual (which I don't think we need to consider here). Which of the points I stated above you don't agree with?

Although this refers to a different trogon species it might still be relevant for the discussion (maybe):
Eisermann, Knut & Omland, Kevin. (2007). Coloration anomaly of a male Collared Trogon (Trogon Collaris). Acta Zoológica Mexicana (nueva serie). 23. 10.21829/azm.2007.232576.

andyadcock said:

You got shitty earlier when I asked about the tail feather and how you could tell it was an outer and it's not the first time with the attitude so I'm done with the crap

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Wow, only noticed this edited bit now. I'd say this is way over the top, really no need for this.
What you call as "shitty" was an honest response from my side. If you see it that way, I feel sorry for that. I don't really think that kind of language is adequate (but perhaps I'm wrong and it's totally fine). Nice.

In any case, what's on discussion here is just the ID of this bird, requested by the OP, I think this kind of approach should have no place here.

RafaelMatias said:

Wow, only noticed this edited bit now. I'd say this is way over the top, really no need for this.
What you call as "shitty" was an honest response from my side. If you see it that way, I feel sorry for that. I don't really think that kind of language is adequate (but perhaps I'm wrong and it's totally fine). Nice.

In any case, what's on discussion here is just the ID of this bird, requested by the OP, I think this kind of approach should have no place here.

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You assume insult with everything I write, you have an attitude issue and I'm sorry for that.

It isn't the first time but I can't find the other post.

Let's settle down guys and keep your arguing out of this thread.