Leica 8x42 model history- when did the tech start to plateau? (1 Viewer)

billy_boy_2010 · Feb 21, 2020

Hi guys

Oh dear- another noob post! Well- hopefully not too noob!

Im after an upgrade to my binoculars. Using cheap ones at the moment and they really suffer in low light. I love the feel of leicas- so will probably go for them. (maybe swaro though......If I can find some cheap enough!

However- my question relates to the model history of the leica range- mainly the trinovid and ultravid.

I wish to buy a used pair. Save some money and hopefully I can use and enjoy what were a "rolls royce" pair of binos 10-20 years ago for the price of a mid range pair now (perhaps £500).

What I'm trying to find out is some model history and tech info on their main two models.

Every one is probably looking for that "bang for buck" pair- and I'm no different I suppose.

But as I'm looking at a used pair- it would really help me if I knew a year period where the tech jumps ups into a pair.

I have managed to find similar info on Swaros by lurking and searching actually

but no such luck with Leica- hence the post

Perhaps the Trinovids >200X have a similar spec to the Uktravids from 199X? Perhaps Generation Y of the trinovid very nearly matched the Ultravid from the same time period ?

Priorities for me are low light transmission. Weight is perhaps the least important- with clarity, DOF etc all being mid priority.

Thanks for the advice- hopefully this is a reasonably well researched noob post

It should allow me to really narrow down my eBay searching.

etudiant · Feb 21, 2020

Honestly, there are no tech jumps in the binocular world. Stuff gets gradually better, but a 1950 glass will give you almost as much as a 2020 model.
The gains have been in price, a $200 glass today will have an optical performance that rivals a $1000 glass from 1980. The differences today are in mechanical quality and customer support.
Sadly the optical quality of the various suppliers remains erratic, Nikon is probably the best, but the industry remains rife with tales of 'cherry' specimens as well as of 'lemons', at all price points.
Also note that product names such as 'Trinovid' are just that, they are content free labels that do not relate to any optical or mechanical design aspect of the product. It is like IBM's System 360, none of the various elements were really similar technically or even operationally, but they shared the name.

Mark9473 · Feb 21, 2020

Hi and welcome to the forum.
Could you clarify "low light transmission"?
You may want high light transmission, which is a property of the glass used and the coatings applied to it, or you may want low light performance e.g. for nighttime viewing, which is more affected by the size of the exit pupil.

PYRTLE · Feb 21, 2020

For £500 you should be able to obtain a good pair of Leica Trinovid 8 x 42 BN, the follow up to the successful BA - the main difference being the BN has been set up for closer focusing. I had 3 pairs, from new, all built solidly and used heavily ( without problems )for 15 years. Then came the Ultravid, an underated bino in my opinion, but lost out to the Swarovski EL.

Check the coatings on the exposed surfaces amongst other examinations.

Good luck.

billy_boy_2010 · Feb 21, 2020

Mark9473 said:
Hi and welcome to the forum.
Could you clarify "low light transmission"?
You may want high light transmission, which is a property of the glass used and the coatings applied to it, or you may want low light performance e.g. for nighttime viewing, which is more affected by the size of the exit pupil.

Interesting point- to keep it simple

I want to see a brighter image in poor light levels. To gain a few extra minutes of viewing before it becomes too dark

To put it another way- I'm looking for good dawn and dusk performance- when lesser quality kit would struggle.

billy_boy_2010 · Feb 22, 2020

PYRTLE said:
For £500 you should be able to obtain a good pair of Leica Trinovid 8 x 42 BN, the follow up to the successful BA - the main difference being the BN has been set up for closer focusing. I had 3 pairs, from new, all built solidly and used heavily ( without problems )for 15 years. Then came the Ultravid, an underated bino in my opinion, but lost out to the Swarovski EL.

Check the coatings on the exposed surfaces amongst other examinations.

Good luck.

Thanks. That does seem to be a popular model so should be a few on the second hand market.

Presumably the trinovid was gradually upgraded over time (or perhaps even down graded as a cost cutting measure ?!)

So is there a certain build year from/to which is worth looking out for ? A more robust design, or a new improved coating etc ?

billy_boy_2010 · Feb 22, 2020

etudiant said:
Honestly, there are no tech jumps in the binocular world. Stuff gets gradually better, but a 1950 glass will give you almost as much as a 2020 model.
The gains have been in price, a $200 glass today will have an optical performance that rivals a $1000 glass from 1980. The differences today are in mechanical quality and customer support.
Sadly the optical quality of the various suppliers remains erratic, Nikon is probably the best, but the industry remains rife with tales of 'cherry' specimens as well as of 'lemons', at all price points.
Also note that product names such as 'Trinovid' are just that, they are content free labels that do not relate to any optical or mechanical design aspect of the product. It is like IBM's System 360, none of the various elements were really similar technically or even operationally, but they shared the name.

Really ? Interesting. Hasnt lens tech and coatings improved over the years ?

I realise that the expensive tech and high quality glass has become more affordable- with formerly state of the art tech trickling down to cheaper kit.

But I thought manufacturing methods and coatings have improved - and thus there may be a few generations worth looking at which perhaps stay ahead of the budget competition ?

Mark9473 · Feb 22, 2020

billy_boy_2010 said:
I want to see a brighter image in poor light levels. To gain a few extra minutes of viewing before it becomes too dark

To put it another way- I'm looking for good dawn and dusk performance- when lesser quality kit would struggle.

Then maximize the exit pupil - instead of 8x42, look for 8x56, 7x50, 7x42 or something like that.

etudiant · Feb 22, 2020

billy_boy_2010 said:
Really ? Interesting. Hasnt lens tech and coatings improved over the years ?

I realise that the expensive tech and high quality glass has become more affordable- with formerly state of the art tech trickling down to cheaper kit.

But I thought manufacturing methods and coatings have improved - and thus there may be a few generations worth looking at which perhaps stay ahead of the budget competition ?

Technology sure has improved, mostly thanks to coatings that have allowed 90+% light transmission, up from perhaps 50-60% in the 1950s. Better lens shaping and glass compositions has also improved image color fidelity.
Smaller improvements have been achieved in most other aspects, while FoV is still in the 5-8 degree range, eye relief is improved to at least 14-15mm from as little as 11-12mm and most binocs are at least somewhat water resistant.
That all considered, the biggest improvement imho is the addition of image stabilization, spearheaded by Canon. Sadly the industry is too small and too risk averse, so none of the major brands such as Zeiss, Leica or Swarovsky offer that technology.

wdc · Feb 22, 2020

billy_boy_2010 said:
I wish to buy a used pair. Save some money and hopefully I can use and enjoy what were a "rolls royce" pair of binos 10-20 years ago for the price of a mid range pair now (perhaps £500).

What I'm trying to find out is some model history and tech info on their main two models.

Every one is probably looking for that "bang for buck" pair- and I'm no different I suppose.

But as I'm looking at a used pair- it would really help me if I knew a year period where the tech jumps ups into a pair.

I have managed to find similar info on Swaros by lurking and searching actually but no such luck with Leica- hence the post

Perhaps the Trinovids >200X have a similar spec to the Uktravids from 199X? Perhaps Generation Y of the trinovid very nearly matched the Ultravid from the same time period ?

Priorities for me are low light transmission. Weight is perhaps the least important- with clarity, DOF etc all being mid priority.

Thanks for the advice- hopefully this is a reasonably well researched noob post It should allow me to really narrow down my eBay searching.

Hi Billy_Boy and welcome to the forum.

Who doesn't want a bargain, as they enter into this den of price/perfomance inquiry?

It may help to examine your age, and whether you wear glasses or not, and even what your IPD is. My 65 year old, spectacle wearing, experience, is that the bins of yore were not designed with me as a customer. So, if you are younger than me, and don't need glasses, there are probably a lot of used binoculars that will work for you, and deliver what you're looking for, whether they are built by Leica, or not.

Just perusing older Leicas, no longer in production, on EBay, it looks like the Trinovid BN model is still a few hundred above your price point.

A binocular that is good in low light is more of an objective size and exit pupil issue than it should be brand specific. 7x42, 8x42, 10x42, 7x50, 10x50...

My simple advice is to broaden your horizons beyond a single marque. Look at Nikon, Zeiss, Swaro, and be willing to go back 10 years. Leicas have always been priced higher than their performance relative to other brands.

Make sure they fit, no matter what you get.

-Bill

Kevin Conville · Feb 22, 2020

billy_boy_2010 said:
Priorities for me are low light transmission. Weight is perhaps the least important- with clarity, DOF etc all being mid priority.

Then skip 8x42s and go for 8x50s. Even 8x56s.

dwatsonbirder · Feb 22, 2020

Kevin Conville said:
Then skip 8x42s and go for 8x50s. Even 8x56s.

Agree with Kevin, perhaps stepping up to 10x rather than 8x would increase the detail level. If that was something you'd be open to, then I suspect these represent an excellent choice - and well inside your budget.

billy_boy_2010 · Feb 22, 2020

Mark9473 said:
Then maximize the exit pupil - instead of 8x42, look for 8x56, 7x50, 7x42 or something like that.

Good point- I could do that. I wouldn't want to go too low in mag- but a 7x would be ok I guess.

I think 8x56 would be too bulky for me- but perhaps a 7x50 would give me some really good light gathering performance. Hmmmm

billy_boy_2010 · Feb 22, 2020

wdc said:
Hi Billy_Boy and welcome to the forum.

Who doesn't want a bargain, as they enter into this den of price/perfomance inquiry?

It may help to examine your age, and whether you wear glasses or not, and even what your IPD is. My 65 year old, spectacle wearing, experience, is that the bins of yore were not designed with me as a customer. So, if you are younger than me, and don't need glasses, there are probably a lot of used binoculars that will work for you, and deliver what you're looking for, whether they are built by Leica, or not.

Just perusing older Leicas, no longer in production, on EBay, it looks like the Trinovid BN model is still a few hundred above your price point.

A binocular that is good in low light is more of an objective size and exit pupil issue than it should be brand specific. 7x42, 8x42, 10x42, 7x50, 10x50...

My simple advice is to broaden your horizons beyond a single marque. Look at Nikon, Zeiss, Swaro, and be willing to go back 10 years. Leicas have always been priced higher than their performance relative to other brands.

Make sure they fit, no matter what you get.

-Bill

Haha fair point 're everyone wanting the best bang for ones buck etc.

36 and perfect vision (as a result of contact lenses)

I was attempting to keep things simple by narrowing my search to one or two brands and models. But perhaps I should keep my options open ?

Dropping the may down to 7 and upping the objective to 50 would still keep the weight down a little and give me great performance.

I didn't realise Leica commanded such a price premium. I thought Swaro were most firmly in this category? But I'm very happy to be educated by someone wiser

Holger Merlitz · Feb 22, 2020

billy_boy_2010 said:
Hi guys

Oh dear- another noob post! Well- hopefully not too noob!

Im after an upgrade to my binoculars. Using cheap ones at the moment and they really suffer in low light. I love the feel of leicas- so will probably go for them. (maybe swaro though......If I can find some cheap enough!

However- my question relates to the model history of the leica range- mainly the trinovid and ultravid.

I wish to buy a used pair. Save some money and hopefully I can use and enjoy what were a "rolls royce" pair of binos 10-20 years ago for the price of a mid range pair now (perhaps £500).

What I'm trying to find out is some model history and tech info on their main two models.

Every one is probably looking for that "bang for buck" pair- and I'm no different I suppose.

But as I'm looking at a used pair- it would really help me if I knew a year period where the tech jumps ups into a pair.

I have managed to find similar info on Swaros by lurking and searching actually but no such luck with Leica- hence the post

Perhaps the Trinovids >200X have a similar spec to the Uktravids from 199X? Perhaps Generation Y of the trinovid very nearly matched the Ultravid from the same time period ?

Priorities for me are low light transmission. Weight is perhaps the least important- with clarity, DOF etc all being mid priority.

Thanks for the advice- hopefully this is a reasonably well researched noob post It should allow me to really narrow down my eBay searching.

I think the last considerable tech jump took place about 1990 when the P-coating was introduced. If you compare a Leica Trinovid of the 1980s with the Trinovid BA/BN of the 1990s, you detect a significant improvement in terms of contrast and center resolution. After 1990, a gradual evolution took place along with an improvement of coating technology. The Trinovid BA may have had a transmission about 85% while the later Ultravid HD+ just exceeded 90% - not that much different. If you are looking for an excellent low-light glass for a reasonable price, the Trinovid BA/BN 8x50 would certainly be a good choice.

Cheers,
Holger

PYRTLE · Feb 22, 2020

I searched a well known auction site and was surprised how well the Trinovid BA and BN s are holding their price but quite a few options at 32 / 42 and 50 mm objectives. It is probably worthwhile testing out some different combinations first if you can, at your nearest optics outlet to see which spec. suits you're requirements, preferably on a cloudy day - I'd suggest 8 x 42 / 8 x 50 / 10 x 42 and 10 x 50 if possible.

Or just go for what you originally thought, an 8 x 42 Trinovid BN, but you'll need to splash the cash.

Foss · Feb 23, 2020

You might consider posting a want ad in the classified section here at Birdforum, stating your aims. There are some very reputable individuals here, one of whom might have just what you desire.

tenex · Feb 23, 2020

Billy, the best advice is always to try binos first, though that could be hard with older models. Do you have a local birding group to contact? That way you can check out eye relief, general comfort etc. Note that Leicas don't work well for some eyeglass wearers, though they're fine without.

Regarding tech, just avoid pre-1990 roof prisms without phase coatings (which would also have inferior transmission). With something like a Leica BN or later you'll be fine, all the later improvements are really quite modest. We still have a BN (10x32, not your thing) and love it.

As to price, don't reject what you really like if it's just a bit more than the figure you chose, especially if you happen upon a particularly nice one. It's a potential lifetime purchase.

Finally, your own age: as you may have seen mentioned here before, if you're not a youngster, your own pupil will no longer dilate to the 6-7mm range to take advantage of something like an 8x56 in low light, so choose 5-6mm exit pupils: 8x42 or possibly 8x50, or if you're willing to consider 10x, 10x50 or 10x56.

Mike F · Feb 23, 2020

Billy, much good advice has been given above, but to answer you question directly, and specifically this part:-

'Perhaps the Trinovids >200X have a similar spec to the Uktravids from 199X? Perhaps Generation Y of the trinovid very nearly matched the Ultravid from the same time period?'

I would suggest looking out for a 2012-15 Trinovid. This particular Trinovid was only made for a short time before it was 'superseded' by the cheaper (made in Japan) Trinovid HD, but it's widely been reported that it had the same optical quality as the Ultravid or even Ultravid HD. See this review from birdwatching.com:-

https://www.birdwatching.com/optics/2012highendbins/review.html

There are some differences that separate it from the Ultravid (as noted in the review) - slightly smaller FOV, longer minimum focus distance and slightly heavier, but in my opinion the 2012-15 Trinovid is a bit of an overlooked Leica gem. I have the 8x42 and it stands up very well indeed against my 7x42 UVHD+ and Noctivid 10x42. They may be hard to come across, but if you see one I highly recommend giving it a try!

tenex · Feb 23, 2020

Mike F said:
I would suggest looking out for a 2012-15 Trinovid. This particular Trinovid was only made for a short time before it was 'superseded' by the cheaper (made in Japan) Trinovid HD, but it's widely been reported that it had the same optical quality as the Ultravid or even Ultravid HD.

I'll second that, this is a good model to be aware of if you want an 8x42 (we have the 10x). It's hard to know how to search for or what to call it, "Trinovid 42 BR" officially I think. It looked nearly identical to the Ultravid with the same integrated focuser/diopter. Sold for around $1500 new, under $1000 at discount when discontinued, probably still an excellent buy used.

Leica 8x42 model history- when did the tech start to plateau? (1 Viewer)

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