Taiga/Red-breasted Flycatcher, Shenyang, Liaoning, China, May-12-2018. (1 Viewer)

My field guide is out of date and I previously identified it as Taiga. Based on the orange area, I'd say it's a Red-breasted Flycatcher. Confirmation appreciated.
I found two checklists for the province of Liaoning. eBird only listed Taiga (https://ebird.org/barchart?r=CN-21&yr=all&m=) while Avibase only Red-breasted (https://avibase.bsc-eoc.org/checkli...lang=EN&region=cnli&list=sibleymonroe&lang=EN).
Taiga and Red-breasted used to be treated as one species. My question is, were the historical birds in Liaoning Taiga or Red-breasted? Or, which one is the default species?

Taiga flycatcher was formerly considered a race of the Red-breasted Flycatcher (F. parva). Male Red-breasted can be distinguished from Taiga Flycatcher (Ficedula albicillai) of the Eastern Palearctic by the more extensive orange which extends further down into the center of the breast in Red-breasted. On Taiga Flycatcher the orange is confined to the throat; thus the alternate name Red-throated Flycatcher (Rasmussen & Anderton). Some authors persist in lumping the two (Taylor 2016) based on supposed hybridization, but Clements, IOC and AOU split them following Svensson et al. (2005). By range alone your bird is Ficedula albicilla, Taiga Flycatcher.


Svensson, L.,Collinson,M., Knox,A.G.,Parkin,D.T.,& Sangster,G. 2005. Species limits in the Red-breasted Flycatcher. British Birds 98:538–541. [PDF]

jmorlan said:

Taiga flycatcher was formerly considered a race of the Red-breasted Flycatcher (F. parva). Male Red-breasted can be distinguished from Taiga Flycatcher (Ficedula albicillai) of the Eastern Palearctic by the more extensive orange which extends further down into the center of the breast in Red-breasted. On Taiga Flycatcher the orange is confined to the throat; thus the alternate name Red-throated Flycatcher (Rasmussen & Anderton). Some authors persist in lumping the two (Taylor 2016) based on supposed hybridization, but Clements, IOC and AOU split them following Svensson et al. (2005). By range alone your bird is Ficedula albicilla, Taiga Flycatcher.


Svensson, L.,Collinson,M., Knox,A.G.,Parkin,D.T.,& Sangster,G. 2005. Species limits in the Red-breasted Flycatcher. British Birds 98:538–541. [PDF]

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Thanks! I thought the orange was extensive.
The reference is very helpful!
Here is the link of this bird's song:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93331440@N08/42323613985/in/dateposted-public/

Hi Nancy, I'm not at all an expert on these species, but I hope this comment will be helpful.

In Japan, where I live, most of the bird which overwinter ('accidentally') are, it seems, Red-breasted. Naively, I used to assume that because the Taiga birds are much closer to Japan in summer the wintering birds here would be Taiga, but birding friends put me straight.

The Japanese names for these two species translate as 'White-tailed Flycatcher' (Taiga, but this was the name for the combined species before the split) and 'Western White-tailed Flycatcher' (Red-breasted).

In fact, it seems to be the case that Taiga fly south to winter quite successfully and rarely veer east to Japan. Red-breasted, on the other hand, seem to fly to the east for part of their migration for the winter, and seem to sometimes overshoot and end up in Japan. Brazil's 'Birds of East Asia' says that Red-breasted winter in India and Pakistan. Maybe some birds fly east to come around the Himalayas and Tibet and fail to turn south early enough; I don't know.

Interestingly, the Red-breasted which come to Japan often seem to be first-year males, or so I am told (some may be females), which do not yet have a red breast. They are common enough that there was a bird in short walking distance of my house in central Japan (Nara, near Osaka) in each of the past two years (in two different locations, one for several months, one for just a week or so), though I didn't hear of one in winter this year. A male with a full red breast has been a winter regular at a park near Kobe for a few years.

Red-breasted is a 'local mega' in Japan, but Taiga a more 'wide-area mega' because much rarer.

The Taiga male loses its red breast during winter, according to the books - I've never seen one - whereas Red-breasted male keeps his once he has it.

As regards the distinction between the two, the uppertail covert colouration (black or brown) is one feature. Another is the extent of red on the male breast - smaller and neater on Taiga, going lower down and with a less neat bottom edge on Red-breasted. I think your bird should therefore be Red-breasted, as the red is quite extensive. I have taken the liberty of lightening one of your photos so that the extent of red and the lack of a clear grey border on the chest is easier to appreciate.

I think however that both species should be observable in Liaoning, although perhaps any/most overwintering birds might be Red-breasted that didn't get as far as Korea or Japan, rather than Taiga.

As I said, I'm not an expert, and maybe someone like Rockfowl will come along and correct me, but I hope this comment is helpful in respect of the relative prevalence in Japan in winter, and therfore potentially in Liaoning also.

Neither, its a 2cy male Mugimaki Flycatcher.

Grahame

Grahame Walbridge said:

Neither, its a 2cy male Mugimaki Flycatcher.

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Haha! Something like that had occurred to me because the white sides to the tail didn't seem visible, but I put it down to the photo. And there didn't seem to be any eyebrow visible (for Mugimaki). And I guess I just assumed that the OP had got the right original id (i.e. the unsplit bird).

But when you say it clearly, it's there.

Still, I hope the information on Red-breasted vs Taiga may still be relevant as is.

Thank you for the help! Never thought about a young male Mugimaki Flycatcher.

MacNara said:

Haha! Something like that had occurred to me because the white sides to the tail didn't seem visible, but I put it down to the photo. And there didn't seem to be any eyebrow visible (for Mugimaki). And I guess I just assumed that the OP had got the right original id (i.e. the unsplit bird).

But when you say it clearly, it's there.

Still, I hope the information on Red-breasted vs Taiga may still be relevant as is.

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This photo shows the eyebrow better.

I think Red-breasted would be surprising in Liaoning in May, and Taiga would be much more likely.
But, as Grahame has pointed out, this bird is a Mugimaki.

Better processed photos from originals Lancy sent me and I now am swinging to the Mugimaki. Indeed a Taigai would be unusual in May, but I wouldn't rule it out completely. However with the better view, it does look like a female Mugimaki. I don't see evidence of the grey on the head or any white on edges of the tail for male Taiga or Red-Breasted.

I really hesitate to disagree with Grahame, but I don't see any evidence of the "eyebrow" streak for a male.

MacNara said:

The Taiga male loses its red breast during winter, according to the books - I've never seen one - whereas Red-breasted male keeps his once he has it.

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I'm wondering if Mugimaki loses its red as well. Here is a link of a Mugimaki in presumable winter plumage which has no red. "Presumable" as not everyone indicated when/where but it was posted in Feb and to Yunnan (a province in China) forum.
http://www.birdnet.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3005941&extra=&highlight=%F0%B6%BC%A7%FBl&page=1

Hi again, Lancy, and apologies for mis-calling you 'Nancy' earlier.

As I have already shown in this thread, I am not an expert. But the bird you linked to doesn't look like a Mugimaki at all to me. I would have gone for worn or winter male Whinchat from the face pattern, colouring and the slight reddish wing panel. I don't think this is supposed to occurs in Yunnan, but it does occur directly north according to my books, on the Yenisei River in western Siberia. It's said to winter in Africa, so maybe some pass through Yunnan on the way from Siberia. And maybe a few like the look of Yunnan and stay there over the winter.

Or maybe it's a worn female Grey Bushchat which I guess does occur there? I've only ever seen a male (in India). Or there may be other birds not in any books I have which could occur in Yunnan?

Unfortunately when I went to Kunming and Xishuanbanna in 1982 I wasn't a birder.

Anyway, I'm sure Grahame or John will be along to set me right soon enough.

Lancy Cheng said:

I'm wondering if Mugimaki loses its red as well. Here is a link of a Mugimaki in presumable winter plumage which has no red. "Presumable" as not everyone indicated when/where but it was posted in Feb and to Yunnan (a province in China) forum.
http://www.birdnet.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3005941&extra=&highlight=%F0%B6%BC%A7%FBl&page=1

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Nancy, the bird in the link is a male Grey Bushchat.

In answer to Owen's query, a reduced brow is visible in the 3rd image, though I concede that I should have been more cautious re sexing/ageing given the quality of the images so, ad fem/2cy male.

Grahame

Lancy Cheng said:

I'm wondering if Mugimaki loses its red as well. Here is a link of a Mugimaki in presumable winter plumage which has no red. "Presumable" as not everyone indicated when/where but it was posted in Feb and to Yunnan (a province in China) forum.
http://www.birdnet.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=3005941&extra=&highlight=%F0%B6%BC%A7%FBl&page=1

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That's a male Grey Bushchat. Male Mugimaki does retain the orange throat in winter.

Owen Krout said:

Better processed photos from originals Lancy sent me and I now am swinging to the Mugimaki. Indeed a Taigai would be unusual in May, but I wouldn't rule it out completely. However with the better view, it does look like a female Mugimaki. I don't see evidence of the grey on the head or any white on edges of the tail for male Taiga or Red-Breasted.

I really hesitate to disagree with Grahame, but I don't see any evidence of the "eyebrow" streak for a male.

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As Grahame mentioned, this seems to be a second calendar year male (ie hatched during 2017). For me the orange underparts on this bird look too bright for a female Mugimaki. Male Mugimaki retain brown upperparts for the first year, and don't moult the black upperparts until their second summer (i.e. this bird will get the black upperparts later this summer). Many young males don't show a white 'eyebrow', or sometimes just a hint of one.
Compare this individual: http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_Image_ID=38399&Bird_ID=2681&Bird_Family_ID=&Location=

[Edit: cross-post with MacNara and Grahame]

MacNara said:

...it's a worn female Grey Bushchat ...

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Grahame Walbridge said:

...the bird in the link is a male Grey Bushchat...

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johnallcock said:

That's a male Grey Bushchat. Male Mugimaki does retain the orange throat in winter.

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Thank you for the correction!:t: The bird was labeled as Mugmaki by the OP...

Hi Grahame and John:

Why does the bird Lancy linked to have such rufous tones (breast, wing panel and vent) if it's a male?

The only one (male) I've seen was grey white and black, and this is also what the books show. Is it a winter plumage?

MacNara said:

Hi Grahame and John:

Why does the bird Lancy linked to have such rufous tones (breast, wing panel and vent) if it's a male?

The only one (male) I've seen was grey white and black, and this is also what the books show. Is it a winter plumage?

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Hardly rufous, the grey-washed underparts appear to have a slightly pinkish-brown wash/tint and the remiges are brownish-black. The bird looks quite worn and maybe the remiges are old, as for the underparts that's caused by lighting.

Grahame

Thanks for the reply. On my monitor, the whole bird has a rufous/brown tone including the face patch, there is a strong rufous patch on the vent (just under the legs in the photo) and the tail tip is rufous. The wing - both the shoulder and the tertials show strong rufous. All the birds that I could find on an internet search with significant rufous tones are marked as female. (The male bird I posted has no rufous at all on my monitor; it's not a problem with my monitor.) So this is why I thought it must be a female.

Photos of male birds on the internet are almost all grey, white and black, whatever the light, but there are one or two photos where the male has a little rufous. As I said, I've never seen a female, and I was going by the illustration in Brazil's 'Birds of East Asia'. Looking at photos on the internet, it seems to be the case, however, that the female generally has a much less prominent supercilium than the bird linked by Lancy or that shown by Brazil's female illustration (i.e. this illustration is not so good, or at least doesn't show a typical female).

On my screen, the bird doesn't look particularly brown. The wings and tail are quite worn and faded, making them look browner-toned than other parts of the body, which suggests that this is a first-winter bird (with retained juvenile remiges but having completed body moult). There is a very vague wash of brown on the breast, undertail and face, but this looks to me more like a combination of wear and lighting.
Female Grey Bushchat is actually quite different from the male - the prominent white superciilium, dark face mask, white (or at least whitish) underparts, grey back and grey (not rufous) tail all point to this being a male.
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_Image_ID=150589&Bird_ID=2549&Bird_Family_ID=&Location=

Thanks John. I wasn't really trying to challenge Grahame or yourself, I was trying to explain why it seemed much more like a female to me with the materials I had to hand at first.

With the original bird, I had noticed that the undertail didn't look right for Red-breasted, and the head should also have been a bit greyer (on a developed bird with a full red breast), but I didn't have the confidence to challenge the OP's ID, and put these down to 'lighting'. So, after that blunder, I was feeling pleased with myself to have realised that this other bird wasn't Mugimaki, and very pleased with myself to have got Grey Bushchat, given my only direct experience with this bird is the three seconds nine years ago in which I took the photo I attached.

But perhaps this time I erred in the opposite direction as regards ignoring the effects of wear and lighting. But this bird is still quite a long way from anything that comes up on a straight Google search for Grey Bushchat, so I can also sympathise with whoever posted it on the Chinese forum Lancy linked to, and who thought it was something else.

Anyway, yet again, this is a thread where error has led to significant learning on my part. Thanks to you both.