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Wagtail ? ID from UAE, 17.09.2018. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter peterarras
- Start date
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
Two strong white wing bars are good for Citrine Wagtail
peterarras
Well-known member
Thank you so much, Valery!
Larry Sweetland
Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
I'd suggest that the head pattern fits Yellow Wagtail sp better. Not easy to be sure from these shots, but ear coverts look dark, and not isolated. A couple of images of juv Eastern Yellow Wagtail in oriental bird images show pretty striking wing bars. Like to hear more opinions on this bird.
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
My thought too.
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
Pure white undertail and longish tail also good for Citrine against Western Yellow, I didn't consider Eastern Yellow... are there records in Arabia ?
SteveClifton
Well-known member
Pale pinkish lower mandible not good for Citrine Wagtail :smoke:
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
I checked online, it seems that feature given by Collins is wrong : there are many 1cy Citrine with pale lower mandible, may be even more than Easter Yellow, many having all black bill.
OP bird is similar to this one for example.
https://www.worldbirdphotos.com/wp-...ne-juv-2-Ranthambhore-India-Oct06-D100A_1.jpg
SteveClifton
Well-known member
That's interesting Valéry, thanks for the link
Did you find any images of Citrine with dark upper and pale lower mandibles? The bird in your link has extensive pink on both mandibles, almost as though there might be a pigment aberration?
I get the feeling we won't reach a confirmed ID on this one without better images...
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Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
Yes, you can find many of them !
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/citrine_wagtail__motacilla_citreola_.jpg
https://i2.wp.com/birdingfrontiers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Citrine-Wagtail-AA-d.jpg
http://www.oiseaux.net/photos/singhal.sunil/images/bergeronnette.citrine.sisu.5g.jpg
I think we can finally agree on Citrine ?
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/citrine_wagtail__motacilla_citreola_.jpg
https://i2.wp.com/birdingfrontiers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Citrine-Wagtail-AA-d.jpg
http://www.oiseaux.net/photos/singhal.sunil/images/bergeronnette.citrine.sisu.5g.jpg
I think we can finally agree on Citrine ?
SteveClifton
Well-known member
Thanks for the additional links. Whilst I'm not disagreeing, I'm also not agreeing just yet, on the strength of these images.
Although there are certainly some pro-Citrine features, there are also a number of anomalous features too, which don't fit my expectation of typical Citrine. Of course that doesn't mean it's not an atypical Citrine, but I'd like to see some further input from others...and perhaps some more images...?
To summarise, the face pattern reminds me more of Yellow, the wing-bars-while quite bold, are fairly narrow, and most of the lower mandible appears pale pinkish, contrasting with an entirely dark upper mandible. Another worry is the very bold malar stripe. On their own any one of these features might be ok, but in combination, well I'm just not sure...?
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Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
That's because the bird has not yet finished its post-juvenile moult. I've seen thousands of Citrine (Nepal, Oman, UAE, Israël...) and it looks like usual Citrine for me.
rosbifs
PutAin STOP
Doesn't quite fall into same category but there was this in France last year - I post it because in the thread is a link to birding frontiers and another 'pale' yellow wagtail...
https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=350801&highlight=wagtail
The discussion might be of relevant. Two wing bars and white under tail no face pattern etc...
https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=350801&highlight=wagtail
The discussion might be of relevant. Two wing bars and white under tail no face pattern etc...
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
I agree the bird is nearly in the same stage of post-juvenile moult, and indeed wingbars and UTC are similar. Thanks for sharing. I wonder what in the "jizz" make it a Yellow Wagtail at first sight.
I'm comparing photos online to try to find. I see two details that might make the jizz effect : blacker greater coverts and flight feathers in Citrine, giving a more contrasted wing bars effect, as well as white in tertials stronger. And general colour that is colder grey than in Yellow.
Interestingly, the bill of your bird looks all dark... the feature is definitely not reliable.
rosbifs
PutAin STOP
Ear coverts looks to be constant - the, almost on some, wrap round effect seems more constant feature. If you look at mine the face pattern almost identical to the yellow wagtails it was with... There is a tinge of yellow in the primaries so not 'black and white'...
If I'm honest I was still waiting for some analysis on mine - it went to an 'expert' last year but no come back, as yet. It was put down as an interesting yellow...
If I'm honest I was still waiting for some analysis on mine - it went to an 'expert' last year but no come back, as yet. It was put down as an interesting yellow...
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
In my experience yes.
PYRTLE
Old Berkshire Boy
Which this bird doesn't display in the original images. I'd expect to see a full wrap around of joining the supercillium and sub moustachial.
And there's that dark malar stripe.
Larry Sweetland
Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
Any more pics Peter, especially with the head not angled towards us?
rosbifs
PutAin STOP
Advancved Bird ID handbook
Citrine - Narrow Black eye stripe and moustacial stripe often distinct
- ear coverts completely whitish framed by super, rearside of ear coverts and sub moustachial stripe
- weakly patterned lore - in yellow dark loral stripe and more sharply bordered super before eye
- black bill (rarely paler at base) - in yellow pale base to lower mandible
- pure white undertail cov's
The handbook goes on to say that 'pure' white yellow (underparts) occur but only in eastern populations... For sykes - mantle and scaps grey-brown contrasting with grey back and rump.
So I think a side head shot is needed. I have looked on the web and subject to they being correctly identified (I have to say one CW from waterford 2009 looks like my yellow) there are a handful of citrine without the ear surround - this could be down to angle on a couple but def lacking on one or two. To summise there are pro features and negative but the negative face pattern (from this angle) coupled with the bill is becoming too many...
Citrine - Narrow Black eye stripe and moustacial stripe often distinct
- ear coverts completely whitish framed by super, rearside of ear coverts and sub moustachial stripe
- weakly patterned lore - in yellow dark loral stripe and more sharply bordered super before eye
- black bill (rarely paler at base) - in yellow pale base to lower mandible
- pure white undertail cov's
The handbook goes on to say that 'pure' white yellow (underparts) occur but only in eastern populations... For sykes - mantle and scaps grey-brown contrasting with grey back and rump.
So I think a side head shot is needed. I have looked on the web and subject to they being correctly identified (I have to say one CW from waterford 2009 looks like my yellow) there are a handful of citrine without the ear surround - this could be down to angle on a couple but def lacking on one or two. To summise there are pro features and negative but the negative face pattern (from this angle) coupled with the bill is becoming too many...
