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2017 Western Palearctic Big Year (1 Viewer)

Hmmm, don't agree. Precision may be a challenge but that doesn't make attempts to define boudaries meaningless. Political boundaries? Not stable at all. Geography is best, allowing for plate shifts of course.

Cheers, a

I think precision is more than a challenge. Precisely defining diffuse boundaries is surely an exercise in spurious accuracy rather than precision? The interface of the Maghreb with the Sahara with the Sahel is not like, say, the straights between Bali and Lombok, where these zoo-geographical boundaries are precise and have some real meaning.

If you need a GPS to work out whether you can WP tick something...
 
I think precision is more than a challenge. Precisely defining diffuse boundaries is surely an exercise in spurious accuracy rather than precision? The interface of the Maghreb with the Sahara with the Sahel is not like, say, the straights between Bali and Lombok, where these zoo-geographical boundaries are precise and have some real meaning.

If you need a GPS to work out whether you can WP tick something...

Transition zones can be broad, but then take mid points of transition. The paper in bb tried that for the Sahara, but data seemed a bit sparse. Diffuse boundaries or transition zones are still boundaries of a type. Nobody would deny that sub-saharan birds are different to north african birds.

Cheers, alan
 
Transition zones can be broad, but then take mid points of transition. The paper in bb tried that for the Sahara, but data seemed a bit sparse. Diffuse boundaries or transition zones are still boundaries of a type. Nobody would deny that sub-saharan birds are different to north african birds.

Cheers, alan

Fair points, but I come back to the purpose of defining the WP boundaries, other than as a stand-alone academic exercise. In terms of utility to those who care about boundaries in a practical sense (e.g. WP listers), drawing arbitrary "mid-points in the Sahara" would create a needless logistical problem.

The ABA listing region is an entirely political construct. It has little to no bio-geographical logic, but makes complete sense as a "birding" construct.
 
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Without looking at it, i would imagine that the biggest issue would be the Mexican border. How different would a Nearctic list be to the ABA list?

Edit - Ok, so southern Florida is apparently in the Neotropical realm. Who knew!? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogeographic_realm#/media/File:Ecozones.svg

Covered on previous threads i think; colorado river in sw or go down to tehuantepic isthmus. Obviously colorado river, as rio grande is not much if a barrier but a fair approximation to some faunal breaks. Arizona is complicated, you have to carve out the mexican enclave.

Cheers, a
 
Covered on previous threads i think; colorado river in sw or go down to tehuantepic isthmus. Obviously colorado river, as rio grande is not much if a barrier but a fair approximation to some faunal breaks. Arizona is complicated, you have to carve out the mexican enclave.

Cheers, a

I'll leave the Americas up to others to discuss i think! Perhaps doing it by native American tribal boundaries would be a better approximation than modern political borders!?
 
On my blog I was tipped off to this paper, which I think has not been mentioned here before:
Science mag

It shows, that actually we might want to reconsider the northern boundary of the WP as well. If we changed the eastwards boundary to include Transcaspia, we might also consider changing the northeast boundary to include almost all of Russia and in the northern regions we might include Greenland and the northern parts of America...
What I'm trying to say is that the distinction between western and eastern palearctic doesn't have much biogeographical logic to it. Unlike with oceans or the Sahara there is no (more or less) clear geographical boundary and transition from one region to another is gradual no matter where we draw the line. As the above link shows even the Palearctic as a whole is not really a perfect biogeographic region and if we wanted to have the perfect definition we'd have to exclude several parts of Arabia, Iran, Siberia and so forth. Such a map would become a real mess and would be totally annoying to use I believe.

Let's rather use easy to use and less perfect boundaries than perfect boundaries that nobody knows how to use.
 
What I'm trying to say is that the distinction between western and eastern palearctic doesn't have much biogeographical logic to it.

Difficult perhaps but not impossible, I wonder about using Siberian birds going to SE Asia and using those breeding ranges, in aggregate, or average, to try and define the eastern extent of the western Palearctic; we have managed to distinguish Red-breasted Flycatchers (Western) from Taiga Flycatchers (eastern) and there is a whole group of boreal 'Siberian birds' in summer, most of which breed in 'eastern' Siberia but don't extend very far west - there is even that endemic Nuthatch of course; of course it is easy to list the ones which do breed west, but still fly SE. Plenty of fun for some proper scientists.

cheers, alan
 
Fair points, but I come back to the purpose of defining the WP boundaries, other than as a stand-alone academic exercise.

I quite like Science, even though I'm not a scientist! I like to follow taxonomic decisions, even if they are not 'birder friendly', so take the same view with faunal regions however difficult they are to define.

Ref political boundaries, I prefer Watsonian VC boundaries in the UK, for stasis, though agree there is no bio-geographical rationale underpinning them. I do keep a Greater Hampshire (VC 11 +12) list for birds (gets me Parula, Bobolink and Elegant tern back)

cheers, alan
 
Difficult perhaps but not impossible, I wonder about using Siberian birds going to SE Asia and using those breeding ranges, in aggregate, or average, to try and define the eastern extent of the western Palearctic; we have managed to distinguish Red-breasted Flycatchers (Western) from Taiga Flycatchers (eastern) and there is a whole group of boreal 'Siberian birds' in summer, most of which breed in 'eastern' Siberia but don't extend very far west - there is even that endemic Nuthatch of course; of course it is easy to list the ones which do breed west, but still fly SE. Plenty of fun for some proper scientists.

cheers, alan

That was a lot of what i based my thinking on. Plus a few waders too, the distribution of Grey-tailed Tattler is a beauty! The steppes of Kazakhstan are far more WP than eastern, and then there is a handy mountain range before you get into the Eastern Palearctic steppes of Mongolia and its rather different set of breeding species.
 
Without looking at it, i would imagine that the biggest issue would be the Mexican border.

Approximate floristic boundary between "USA" and "Mexico" in red on map below;
1 Sierra San Pedro Martir - Northern species
2 Mogollon Rim - Northern species
3 Davis Mts - Northern species

4 Chisos Mts (Big Bend) - Mexican species
5 Madrean Sky Islands - Mexican species
 

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Dear Birdforumers, we want to thank you all for not just an entertaining thread running through the entire year, but also a thread filled with WP knowledge. As some of you might have suspected, we've been lurkers here. We have picked up on quite a few suggestions from you over the year (except the Never leave Corvo suggestion ... hmmm)
Just as an example, I remember the discussion on White-breasted Cormorants (Lucidus), what set's them apart from Great Cormorant (Marrocanus) ... very good discussion.
So, thanks to you !!! for making our Big Year better.

Favourite quote from this thread, By Paul Chapman:
"They've decided to do it their way and this is not a criticism. It is the first attempt and a truly pioneering effort by three great guys with a fantastic happy go lucky and cheerful attitude. Maximum respect."

/klacke
 
Dear Birdforumers, we want to thank you all for not just an entertaining thread running through the entire year, but also a thread filled with WP knowledge. As some of you might have suspected, we've been lurkers here. We have picked up on quite a few suggestions from you over the year (except the Never leave Corvo suggestion ... hmmm)
Just as an example, I remember the discussion on White-breasted Cormorants (Lucidus), what set's them apart from Great Cormorant (Marrocanus) ... very good discussion.
So, thanks to you !!! for making our Big Year better.

Favourite quote from this thread, By Paul Chapman:
"They've decided to do it their way and this is not a criticism. It is the first attempt and a truly pioneering effort by three great guys with a fantastic happy go lucky and cheerful attitude. Maximum respect."

/klacke

I am sure I speak for many of us in saying thank you three guys for giving the rest of us such an exciting (in our armchairs!) ride.

As we say here in France " Chapeau ":t:
 
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Dear Birdforumers, we want to thank you all for not just an entertaining thread running through the entire year, but also a thread filled with WP knowledge. As some of you might have suspected, we've been lurkers here. We have picked up on quite a few suggestions from you over the year (except the Never leave Corvo suggestion ... hmmm)
Just as an example, I remember the discussion on White-breasted Cormorants (Lucidus), what set's them apart from Great Cormorant (Marrocanus) ... very good discussion.
So, thanks to you !!! for making our Big Year better.

Favourite quote from this thread, By Paul Chapman:
"They've decided to do it their way and this is not a criticism. It is the first attempt and a truly pioneering effort by three great guys with a fantastic happy go lucky and cheerful attitude. Maximum respect."

/klacke

Klacke

Thank you to the three of you again for the entertainment and the rather important matter of finding me a Basra Reed Warbler. That Kuwaiti pelagic was a very memorable day out on a stunning glassy sea and I am very jealous of how many of those type of experiences that you guys built up during the year.

All the best

Paul
 

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I'd like to join in in the chorus of praise. It's been a great year to follow and I have learnt very, very much in the process. You guys have achieved something marvellous and I really wonder if anybody is going to try to surpass the record in the near future!
I hope I wasn't too harsh sometimes, but I really only wanted for you to get the absolute maximum out of this year!

Cheers
Maffong
 

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