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Newtonian scopes (1 Viewer)

I agree with FineArt about the bokeh. Changing bokey and increasing contrast is pretty easy to do in post processing. Easier than removing CA, and there is no amount of post processing that can get more light to my CMOS sensor. The main factor for me right now is cost. I don't have the best camera, and I'm a broke college student. Since I am grinding a mirror anyway, I suppose I am sort looking for reasons to not buy another scope.
 
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Obviously if you already have that type of scope then you may as well use it. If I was starting out with no scope then I'd always recommend a refractor for prime focus photography. CA is a piece of cake to remove, either do it manually with a few clicks or use one of the free actions for Photoshop such as Purple Fringe Killer. That does an amazing job without altering any other colours. It removes all CA too, not just purple as its name implies. On a scope with an FPL-53 doublet, like the SW80ED, then it's very unlikely you would need to remove any CA. Cheaper scopes with basic doublets will have lots of CA but good ED scopes will have virtually zero.

Paul.
 
Focus stacking? What if you don't WANT the background to be in focus? What if the bird moves in between shots?
Reflector bokeh can be very iritating to say the least.

Paul, you are right that there is a huge difference between the ED doublets and achromats. But CA is not just about fringing. It also has an effect on how well the light is pinpointed overall, and that means, the less there is, the better the contrast and resolution. I often ran into problems or difficult situations with CA and fringing with my SW 80/600, but I have yet had to touch a slider with my new 90/600 ED triplet.
 
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Focus stacking? What if you don't WANT the background to be in focus? What if the bird moves in between shots?
Reflector bokeh can be very iritating to say the least....

I think we should make a difference between astronomy and birding... Focus stacking and mirror scopes don't seem adequate for birding.
 
Focus stacking? What if you don't WANT the background to be in focus? What if the bird moves in between shots?
Reflector bokeh can be very iritating to say the least.

Paul, you are right that there is a huge difference between the ED doublets and achromats. But CA is not just about fringing. It also has an effect on how well the light is pinpointed overall, and that means, the less there is, the better the contrast and resolution. I often ran into problems or difficult situations with CA and fringing with my SW 80/600, but I have yet had to touch a slider with my new 90/600 ED triplet.

I've recommended the purple fringe killer action for Photoshop to users of basic acromats before. Their photos would not only include all the usual fringing but the whole image would have a blue/purple cast. The action would remove everything including the colour cast while boosting overall saturation and contrast. Just running the action would make the images look like they had at least come from an ED scope.

Can't say that I ever notice CA with my SW80ED. At 100% pixel peeping I see a slight green tinge around high contrast subjects but that's about all. At normal size it's not visible. It's not a slider I ever use in Lightroom. I guess there can be some variation from scope to scope. Mine is one of the old ones from a few years back so maybe the glass has changed a little in manufacturing/sourcing over time. There's no doubt your 90/600 is a better scope. It's not enough to make me change though. If I ever change I'd most likely get the lens cell first and build it up from that.

Paul.
 
Maybe I had a turkey, but I doubt it. Sometimes it was excellent, other times not so good, depending on the light.
The remove CA function in Lightroom has somewhat the same effect. It reduces fringing and seems to boost saturation and contrast somewhat. It works quite well, but it is still simply taking the off color out of the fringed area so it doesn't show. I don't see that it can re-focus the light to where it should be though.
I remember looking into the purple fringe killer before and deciding it was not any better than what was possible in Lightroom 4, but that was a while ago and I haven't looked into it since. Now I have no need to.
 
I think we should make a difference between astronomy and birding... Focus stacking and mirror scopes don't seem adequate for birding.

Yea, there will be no focus stacking from me. Look at Tord's friend's pic taken with a dob, that seems to be pretty good for birding to me :p
 
Before I bought my first refractor a little over a year ago I thought a lot about what to get. The advantages of the SCs and Maksutovs was obvious, size, weight, portability, cost etc etc. I decided against one for two reasons; less contrast/saturation and above all, the doughnut bokeh. There is nothing you can do in PP that can match the nice, natural looking bokeh of refracting lenses. Not that the bokeh of our scopes is all that great, but it is far better than the ringlets produced by reflectors. Professional photographers spend lots of money on lenses that can produce smooth bokeh. Not all lenses do.
The thought of having to doctor every picture I take with anything but a smooth, featureless background was too much for me, so I went with an ED doublet and recently with an ED triplet. The bokeh is much better with the triplet mainly because there is less CA/fringing in the out of focus areas. The backgrounds look less fractured and disturbing, even after the CA is "killed", but they are still a far cry from what you get with a good portrait lens or with one of those monster Canon 600mm/4 jobs.
My feeling is that it is best to have the best possible image projected on the sensor from the start rather than have to make corrections in PP. It is amazing what you can do in PP now, but corrections are still corrections. They take time and they can never match an image that needs no correction.
There is no ideal solution, just compromises. You have to work with what you have and can afford, and what best suits your needs. If you can make a reflector work for you, great! I doubt, though, that you will see me lugging a 10" Dob through the bush chasing birds.;)
 
On a scope with an FPL-53 doublet, like the SW80ED, then it's very unlikely you would need to remove any CA.
Paul.
+1
Having taken 1000s of pictures with my SW80ED I have encountered visible CA on two sorts of motifs only. In the vast majority there is no CA visible.
  • Shooting BIF against bright sky, sun in front. Visible as a thin purple/pink/blue fringe.
  • Brightest reflections showing a tint of pink, such as water droplets illuminated by sun.
 
I agree that CA is rarely obviously visible in the SW8ED. That actually bothered me less than the CA that was not so obvious. Why do you think your triplet has better color saturation, better contrast, and less visible CA to boot? It has less longitudinal CA. It is better able to bend and focus the light on the focal plane. Simple as that.
 
There is nothing you can do in PP that can match the nice, natural looking bokeh of refracting lenses. Not that the bokeh of our scopes is all that great, but it is far better than the ringlets produced by reflectors. Professional photographers spend lots of money on lenses that can produce smooth bokeh. Not all lenses do. ;)

Perhaps I am underestimating the effect a nice natural bokeh has on a picture, I am still pretty new to photography in general.
My main purpose for this thread was to decide if it would be worth the effort to make a mount for my dob suitable for terrestrial photography. I've decided it definitely is, and I look forward to seeing what I can get. I should be able to get some obnoxious reach and lowlight performance, as my mirror is 12". Hopefully before too long I'll be able to afford an 80ed apo. Thanks a ton for everyone's input, this is a great community :D
 
The background can make or break a picture!
An example from the gallery thread:
The background completely distroys this shot,
10310800006_af84054c6c_h.jpg
Nothing short of removing it all together helped,
10329047116_946eb692d8_h.jpg


Please post some pictures when you have some. We are all curious.
 
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I agree that CA is rarely obviously visible in the SW8ED. That actually bothered me less than the CA that was not so obvious. Why do you think your triplet has better color saturation, better contrast, and less visible CA to boot? It has less longitudinal CA. It is better able to bend and focus the light on the focal plane. Simple as that.

That's what you are paying double the price for, or 4X the price compared to what I paid for mine new (£285). Simple as that. :)


Paul.
 
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Hopefully I will have pictures in a month. Still haven't built the scope, but that's the easy part. Every time I take my mirror to get tested, it gets better and I am pretty addicted to getting it better and better. I am honestly hoping next time I test it that it hasn't improved much at all, because if it has, I'll have to keep figuring more :p.
 
I have made lots of Newtonian mirrors and teach mirror making classes. You'll learn with practice. Making a good mirror seems difficult in the beginning, but is not too difficult once you know how to do it.
 
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