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New Product Introduction Today From Swarovski ?

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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 14:54   #476
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That is going to be the deciding factor for me if I buy the new NL's or not if Swarovski achieves a 159m FOV WITH sharp edges. If they do I will have to buy one because that is going to be awesome. The new Zeiss 8x32 SF even though it has nearly as big of a FOV probably won't have sharp edges.
If the edges are "invisible" how will you assess their sharpness ?
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 15:07   #477
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Regarding the NL 12x42, just to state what is glaringly obvious, the exit pupil is only 3.5 and therefore unlikely to be an easy view.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 16:01   #478
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If the edges are "invisible" how will you assess their sharpness ?
They will still be visible. You will just have to look for them.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 16:05   #479
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Regarding the NL 12x42, just to state what is glaringly obvious, the exit pupil is only 3.5 and therefore unlikely to be an easy view.
It is better than a 10x32 or an 8x25. I really think a 3.5mm exit pupil will be fine at 12x. Swarovski could use some of the trick's they used on the CL 8x30 B to make eye placement easier also.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 16:27   #480
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It is better than a 10x32 or an 8x25. I really think a 3.5mm exit pupil will be fine at 12x. Swarovski could use some of the trick's they used on the CL 8x30 B to make eye placement easier also.
We eagerly anticipate the "optional head rest" developing into an item designed to engage mechanically with a frontal lobe implant.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 16:44   #481
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Unless I'm comparing one brand to another, I never pay much attention to the edge of the FOV in my binoculars.
It's actually not natural as one's focus automatically falls into the center of the view.
It can cause eyestrain to focus too much on the edge as anyone who is into optics already knows.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 16:57   #482
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Unless I'm comparing one brand to another, I never pay much attention to the edge of the FOV in my binoculars.
It's actually not natural as one's focus automatically falls into the center of the view.
And that's precisely why "sharp edges" don't matter - as long as they're sharp enough you notice, say, a soaring bird of prey.

The importance many people here attach to "edge sharpness" is a joke.

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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 17:16   #483
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Maybe they’ll make an 8x32 with a wider fov.

I can’t use their x42 because of the 56mm IPD.

Leica’s trick of the 7x35 solves size weight and view issues even though they don’t have much magnification. I think that for birding their product has merits.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by temmie View Post
I was specifically commenting this line:
"Similarly, the EL SV has also proven itself as a market leader both in it’s own right, and in terms of imitation
e.g. among other, Zeiss, Leica and Nikon have all offered flat field (and open bridge area) designs"


Ofcourse the combination of axle-less and central focusing is introduced with the EL in 1999, but not the open bridge.

Other "marketing" I would like to point out:

1. "The term Swarovision was used to describe a set of features:
- most notably, a flattened field of view
- use of HD glass in the objectives *
- longer eye relief, and
- improved image colour and transmission"

It seems like Nikon should have marketed their LXL line as "swarovision" before the word even existed.
And besides the field flattening, the swarovision still didn't top e.g. a Zeiss FL in terms of HD glass, eye relief and transmission (it was 5 years too late for that).

2. "And in 2020 the NL has arrived. While there is a variety of new detail, what’s most notable are:
- the EL SV pattern optics have been redesigned to provide a class leading field of view (an increase on those of the x42 Zeiss SF’s)"

It's like saying that after Roger Federer topped the tennis rankings for 2 decades and claiming that Djokovic is suddenly class leading because he is topping the ranks for a week. Swarovski had never really cared about FOV and I never heard any raving (or critique on Swarovski) when other makers had wider FOV. The general consensus between Swaro fans was always that they 'would rather have a sharp FOV until the edge than anything that is wide and gets more blurry'. I personally welcome wide FOV but it seems many are raving about it now, only because Swarovski is putting emphasis on it.

3. "And again while not apparent to users, the design will necessarily include a new and complex focus mechanism"

Why do you think this? Because of the narrowed center of the body? One thing you could say about the EL/swarovision complex focusing mechanism is not trying to market is as something wonderful, but rather something that made focusing in the EL / Swarovision slow. As Zeiss showed with the SF, you can make it a fast focuser but for some reason Swaro made it focus slow. So actually, that complex focuser of Swaro was, imho, subpar in most aspects. I wonder now (and have read it here, I think Jan Van Daalen wrote it) that the NL will have a faster focuser. So effectively, they now have produced a faster focusing, wide FOV binocular. Not exactly leading the way as others have done it before (Zeiss SF, that is).

4. "The EL was a radical departure from anything else available. The physical design provided holding options not previously available in CF binoculars"

While there are some more options to hold in theory, in practice I find it personally a gimmick.

5. "Similarly, the EL SV has also proven itself as a market leader both in it’s own right, and in terms of imitation
e.g. among other, Zeiss, Leica and Nikon have all offered flat field (and open bridge area) designs"

Nikon SE does not agree regarding the flat field.


Don't get me wrong, I like improvements in binoculars, and Swarovski is the market leader for reasons of combining attractive design, quality among the best and exceptional customer service, but your text reads as giving it too much credit for being a kind of innovator. In my view, they are more like Apple: they combine existing inventions into sleek, attractive products that are also expensive.

If making the analogy with cars: The NL is probably the first binocular from Swarovski that gets me a bit excited because I like what is under the hood. The EL had nice bodywork but a standard engine. A bit like a Mercedes B-class that people buy to get a Mercedes, but most don't know it has engines delivered by Renault. Nothing wrong with that but nothing special either.
The Swarovision had the same nice bodywork and nice comfortable seats. A bit like a Volvo: a very nice car but it still didn't win any race.
The NL finally has some impressive features under the hood, but unlike a true agile racecar, they built it too heavy.

So unless that wide FOV is superimpressive and I could handle the extra weight, I would probably look into lighter (8x32) binoculars that punch above their weight. The most attractive option in the NL line looks to be the 12x42 because you have that extra 2x combined with a comfortable FOV.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 17:29   #484
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Unless I'm comparing one brand to another, I never pay much attention to the edge of the FOV in my binoculars.
It's actually not natural as one's focus automatically falls into the center of the view.
It can cause eyestrain to focus too much on the edge as anyone who is into optics already knows.
I don't understand why anybody would want fuzzy edges! I much prefer sharp edges over soft edges and I can easily see them. Why in the world if it is optically possible to have sharp edges would you want fuzzy edges? it doesn't make any sense to me! Your vision is sharp to the edge why wouldn't you want your binocular's to be sharp to the edge. I think a large majority of people notice the edges or Swarovski wouldn't go to the effort to make them sharp. That is a big reason they sell so many EL's over the other brand's like Zeiss and Leica which generally have softer edges.

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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 17:47   #485
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I'm probably going to get on the waiting list for this. LOTS of technology here.

1. Tops in FOV
2. Looks like adequate ER for eyeglasses wearers
3. Focuses close
4. Says 91% transmission
5. Edge to edge performance you'd expect from Swarovski
6. Maybe a little heavy

I WOULD have preferred an 8X32 though....
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 18:33   #486
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Your vision is sharp to the edge
Only if you`re an Alien
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 18:55   #487
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I don't understand why anybody would want fuzzy edges! I much prefer sharp edges over soft edges and I can easily see them. Why in the world if it is optically possible to have sharp edges would you want fuzzy edges? it doesn't make any sense to me! Your vision is sharp to the edge why wouldn't you want your binocular's to be sharp to the edge. I think a large majority of people notice the edges or Swarovski wouldn't go to the effort to make them sharp. That is a big reason they sell so many EL's over the other brand's like Zeiss and Leica which generally have softer edges.
Dennis, you're the only person that has ever made a statement like that in my memory.
You're saying...you "can easily see" the edges at the exact same time as well as you do the center view and clearly correct ?
I cannot and have never been able to do what you say you can do.
It's not possible for a mere mortal like me.
You're probably rapidly shifting your eyes from the center to the edge and back again without realizing it.
Or maybe you have the finest vision of anyone on this earth.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 19:36   #488
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You're probably rapidly shifting your eyes from the center to the edge and back again without realizing it.
Hello,

however, Dennis is not entirely wrong with his advice that the ELs sell extremely well, that is of course not only due to the sharp edges but also!

I myself also prefer the Flatfield glasses, my impression, the overall sharpness of the image makes it appear more harmonious and balanced.
I had the Zeiss 7x42 Victory for a while, due to the lack of edge sharpness and extreme astigmatism it spoiled my vision, I sold it.

When I look through binoculars with normal edge blurring for a while and then switch to Swarovski 8.5x42, I always think what an incredible optical performance!
It is not so easy to say that sharp edges are unnecessary because you only look through the middle anyway, flat fields are becoming more and more popular, why only?

Andreas
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 19:36   #489
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Bill Cook has a nice write up in his first book regarding being able to see what is in front of you and peripherally; no they cannot be executed simultaneously.

Andy W.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 19:50   #490
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Only if you`re an Alien
Even when I am looking on-axis I can tell if the edges of a binocular are sharp or fuzzy. When I switch from a binocular with soft edges to one with sharp edges it is immediately apparent to me and I prefer the one with the sharp edges. With my peripheral vision I can easily see the edges and how sharp or fuzzy they are. A human's peripheral vision is 110 degree's which is easily enough to see the edge's of a binocular's FOV. Maybe you have tunnel vision? I guess all that R&D that Swarovski went through to develop Swarovision was wasted on mere mortal's if only people with the finest vision on earth notice the sharpness of the edges.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 19:52   #491
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Only if you`re an Alien
My wife and I must BOTH be alien's then because our vision is sharp to the edge. Hmm, I wonder what planet we are from? Maybe it is because we both had Lasik surgery.

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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 20:14   #492
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My wife and I must BOTH be alien's then because our vision is sharp to the edge. Hmm, I wonder what planet we are from? Maybe it is because we both had Lasik surgery.
Yes, you cannot be from this planet. My extreme peripheral vision is fuzzy whilst looking straight ahead. Another vote for a pin sharp sweet spot and wide field of view. I only see the extreme edges if I flick my eyes to one side. I haven't been diagnosed with carpal tunnel vision syndrome as yet.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 20:15   #493
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Temmie, post 457 and post 460,
In your post 460 you formulate a lot of statements without any solid example. Which historical models with open bridge by other binocular producers were in your opinion made before the EL?
Gijs van Ginkel
The earliest I am aware of is Zeiss DF 10x50, 1917. I guess Zeiss did not think "open bridge" was a patentable invention. Admittedly, the Zeiss is an IF bino.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 20:24   #494
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PeterPS, post 493,
What a beauty, no the design is not patented and I do not think this open bridge design is qualified for a patent.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 21:24   #495
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Even when I am looking on-axis I can tell if the edges of a binocular are sharp or fuzzy. When I switch from a binocular with soft edges to one with sharp edges it is immediately apparent to me and I prefer the one with the sharp edges. With my peripheral vision I can easily see the edges and how sharp or fuzzy they are. A human's peripheral vision is 110 degree's which is easily enough to see the edge's of a binocular's FOV. Maybe you have tunnel vision? I guess all that R&D that Swarovski went through to develop Swarovision was wasted on mere mortal's if only people with the finest vision on earth notice the sharpness of the edges.
I sailed through a peripheral check at my last eye test so I don`t think I have tunnel vision, but as a mere earthling I have to look at the edges of my binoculars fov to see they`re sharp, must be great to be able to see the edges whilst looking straight ahead, me I just rely on rapid eye movement.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 21:30   #496
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Yes, you cannot be from this planet. My extreme peripheral vision is fuzzy whilst looking straight ahead. Another vote for a pin sharp sweet spot and wide field of view. I only see the extreme edges if I flick my eyes to one side. I haven't been diagnosed with carpal tunnel vision syndrome as yet.
Optics is a field that offers several levels of understanding; as stated in my signature:
More often than not, our understanding rests with the magnitude of our humble willingness to understand.

I appreciate dries offering that example from the book ... the name of which Im not allowed to mention. However, since that can be misconstrued, I offer the whole thing, again. Speculation can be wonderful. Its how we got the refrigerator, automobile, submarine, Hofner 500/1, and a bazillion other inventions. But facts win the day.

Bill
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 21:42   #497
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Optics is a field that offers several levels of understanding; as stated in my signature:
More often than not, our understanding rests with the magnitude of our humble willingness to understand.

I appreciate dries offering that example from the book ... the name of which Im not allowed to mention. However, since that can be misconstrued, I offer the whole thing, again. Speculation can be wonderful. Its how we got the refrigerator, automobile, submarine, Hofner 500/1, and a bazillion other inventions. But facts win the day.

Bill
Bill, with respect, do you expect an arc field or a flat field?
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 22:20   #498
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I sailed through a peripheral check at my last eye test so I don`t think I have tunnel vision, but as a mere earthling I have to look at the edges of my binoculars fov to see they`re sharp, must be great to be able to see the edges whilst looking straight ahead, me I just rely on rapid eye movement.
I take the whole FOV in seeing the edges with no problem. Just shows you our eye's are different.
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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 23:03   #499
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With my peripheral vision I can easily see the edges and how sharp or fuzzy they are. A human's peripheral vision is 110 degree's which is easily enough to see the edge's of a binocular's FOV. Maybe you have tunnel vision? I guess all that R&D that Swarovski went through to develop Swarovision was wasted on mere mortal's if only people with the finest vision on earth notice the sharpness of the edges.
OK, let's be honest here and not try to rewrite regular biology. Your peripherical vision can't be better than the others, because biologically speaking, human have a low resolution peripherical vision.

Only the fovea of the eye (a 5 degrees circle in the center of the retina) is high resolution, the resolution drops exponentially on the sides.

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Old Sunday 5th July 2020, 23:40   #500
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OK, let's be honest here and not try to rewrite regular biology. Your peripherical vision can't be better than the others, because biologically speaking, human have a low resolution peripherical vision.

Only the fovea of the eye (a 5 degrees circle in the center of the retina) is high resolution, the resolution drops exponentially on the sides.
I didn't say my peripheral vision was better than other's. I don't know what other's see but I do know what I see and my peripheral vision is good enough to see the edge sharpness of a binocular FOV. I know that for a fact. All the biology book's in the world will not change my mind. I know what I see. Your telling me I can't see the horse in the field when my brain is telling me something different. Sorry, I will have to defer to my brain! I trust it. It hasn't lied to me yet.

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