Redpoll undertail coverts (1 Viewer)

Adey Baker · Dec 9, 2003

Any comments on the variable amount of streaking on the undertail coverts of Lesser Redpoll (cabaret)?

I've often noted rather limited amounts of streaking on these birds, previously, but recently I've been looking at them more intently and noticed a full range from unstreaked through to heavily streaked.

Is this perhaps age/sex related?

Whatever, most seem to have a very slight buffish wash across the undertail.

Incidentally, yesterday I saw one bird which had a buff wing bar on one wing and a pure white one on the other! This, whatever the angle of the light. Luckily, it was very much a 'brown' Lesser in all other respects.

Adey

Edward woodwood · Dec 9, 2003

Hi Adey

usually adult males I think but this is unusual

Adey Baker · Dec 9, 2003

Here's one of the more heavily streaked birds taken on Oct 26th 2003

Edward woodwood · Dec 9, 2003

sorry Adey, my comments were a bit vague

the unstreaked birds are usually adult males

Adey Baker · Dec 10, 2003

Thanks Tim

I thought that's what the unstreaked might be but I'd found it a little difficult some times trying to follow each individual bird around in the trees to double-check ID features above and below!

Adey Baker · Dec 10, 2003

This one also seemed to have a half-white and half-buff wing bar on one side.

Michael Frankis · Dec 10, 2003

If Lesser Redpolls can vary between heavily streaked, and completely unstreaked, under-tail coverts . . .

Does it not make one wonder about the validity of the value of presence/absence of under-tail covert streaking as the main distinguishing character between Mealy [Common] Redpoll and Arctic [Hoary] Redpoll?

Michael

Adey Baker · Dec 10, 2003

Absolutely, Michael. I remember an influx of exilipes back in the early 90's and the info at the time was unstreaked for arctic and streaked for mealy - then the 95/96 invasion came and a small amount of streaking on arctic suddenly became OK, especially if it was a fine streak on the longest UTC.

Then the awkward bird at Titchwell the other year turned up info (I think it was on surfbirds) that up to 10% of mealies had pure white unstreaked coverts!
Perhaps lumping them all together is going to be the best option, never mind losing a few 'ticks'

They're still worth looking at, though.

Edward woodwood · Dec 10, 2003

didn't think undertail streaking was a particularly relevant feature these days to separate Mealy/Arctic - thought that had been put to bed......

Michael Frankis · Dec 10, 2003

Hi Tim,

Not according to the literature I've got. There's been nothing on Arctic/Mealy Redpoll identification published since BB 93: 68-84 (2000) and that still relies heavily on undertail covert streaking as an important feature.

Do you know of any articles published in any of the more obscure / difficult-to-get journals?

Michael

Edward woodwood · Dec 10, 2003

yes, but the question was whether it was the most important feature. As they say these days a 'suite' of characters needs to be assessed to claim a good Arctic and some may still be unidentifiable. These days it is only one of several features, and as noted in many articles there is overlap with mealies showing clean covs and Arctics with some streaking....! With as many as 10% Mealies (quoted above) having unmarked covs it's importance seems to be diminishing

Michael Frankis · Dec 10, 2003

Hi Tim,

in many articles

[my emphasis]
citations, please! - I'd like to try chasing some of these up

If the AERC are saying the Lesser / Mealy split is 'premature' because some are unidentifiable, why are they not saying the same of Mealy / Arctic?

Still seems to me (as it did long before the Lesser / Mealy split was made) that Lesser is just as distinct from Mealy (if not more so) than Arctic is.

Michael

HH75 · Dec 10, 2003

Hi Michael,
Apparently there is little (if any) genetic differentiation between Mealy and Arctic Redpolls,so perhaps a lump may be in order....
Harry H

Edward woodwood · Dec 10, 2003

Michael
don't be a pedant - it puts people off posting!

undertail covs are not the most important feature
I think this has been the case for a while (can't remember when the first article stating Arctics can show some streaking appeared but it may well be early 90s - one of the pink Birding Worlds - I don't have the time or inclination to start searching thru the relevant refs
sorry

HH75 · Dec 10, 2003

Hi Tim/Michael,
"Title: Arctic Redpoll [Carduelis hornemanni exilipes]: an identification review based on the 1995/96 influx
Author: S. C. Votier - A. M. Stoddart - J. Steele - K. D. Shaw
Language: English
Magazine: British Birds nr. 2 - 2000
Page: 68 - 84 "

"Title: Redpolls from Greenland and Iceland
Author: Roger Riddington - Steve Votier
Language: English
Magazine: Birding World nr. 4 - 1997
Page: 147 - 149
Contents:

Discussion of the identification of Icelandic Redpoll [Carduelis flammea islandica] and Greenland Redpoll [Carduelis flammea rostrata].

Headlines:
Presumed pale morph Icelandic Redpolls on Fair Isle (October 1996) * References "

Harry H

Edward woodwood · Dec 10, 2003

Watcha Michael et al.,
you said
Does it not make one wonder about the validity of the value of presence/absence of under-tail covert streaking as the main distinguishing character between Mealy [Common] Redpoll and Arctic [Hoary] Redpoll?

so I thought I'd be pedantic too....

In Feb 1991 Andy Stoddart wrote in Birding World 4: 1
The best feature of Arctic Redpoll is undoubtedly a large (>10mm long), wholly unstreaked, pure white, wrap around rump; any bird with this should prove to be an Arctic when other features are checked.........On Arctic....the longest undertail cov feather is either pure white or has a narrow to medium width dark shaft streak, whereas on mealy there is normally as broad, dark arrowheadedshaft streak (although a few rare exceptions occur)

Shirihai et al. 1996 states very much similar listing rump as most important feature as going on to say that undertail covs overlap and some flammeas are unmarked.

and Votier et al in BB 93 p83 gives the BBRC criteria for acceptance of an Arctic going on to state that detail of rump is critical while going on to state that Mealy can be rather variable on the undertail covs and adult males can be unmarked

so over the last 10 13 years at least the presence or absence of streaking on undertail covs has not been the most important feature. The rump, however, has bus as I said before all Arctics need to be assessed on a suite of features and structure may be the most important eventuaslly but perhaps hardest to assess.

Michael Frankis · Dec 10, 2003

Thanks Harry & Tim!

Guess I wasn't being clear enough above - I knew that Arctics could often show a fine streak or two on the undertail coverts; what was new (at least to me) is that some Mealies could show NO undertail streaking. This isn't in the Feb 2000 BB papers.

I'm wondering whether any birds in the 95/96 influx were accepted as Arctic on the basis of pure unstreaked undertails being taken as a diagnostic indicator of Arctic even if other characters could have been 'iffy'.

Michael

Adey Baker · Dec 11, 2003

I think the undertail features were being proposed as a very useful feature for later in the winter when Arctic's rumps would show more streaking than earlier in the winter - thus inviting possible confusion with mealy, especially if you didn't have a mealy nearby for comparison.

Also high in a tree the underside is the most often seen part of the bird.

Adey Baker · Dec 14, 2003

As an addition to this thread I've attached a shot of three Lesser Redpolls to show the range of streaking. They were in a flock of about 22 birds just 5 minutes from home on Dec 10th.

The right hand bird wouldn't co-operate as much as the others but this was the least streaked bird there so I've included it anyway. you can just see that it had only one very fine streak down the middle of the coverts - almost like one of those Arctics.

sheryl · Dec 14, 2003

As the birds photographed by Adey do not show an obvious buffy brown suffusion on the vent I wonder how they can be confidently identified as Lessers rather than Mealies towards the dark end of that (sub)species range of variation.

Sheryl

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