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The Dutch Mr. Forsten

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Old Friday 25th March 2016, 09:26   #1
Calalp
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The Dutch Mr. Forsten

Here´s some small questions regarding:

forsteni
● as in the subspecies (or species) Megapodius (freycinet/reinwardt /tenimberensi ) forsteni GRAY 1847 (here) as "M. [Megapodius]Forsteni. …" (not much of an OD) a k a Forsten's Scrubfowl or Forsten's Megapode (sometimes, in either combination, also erroneously written forstenii)
● and in Sunset Lorikeet Trichoglossus forsteni BONAPARTE 1850 (here) as "Trichoglossus Forsteni"

I think there is little doubt that those two birds (among several others!) commemorate the Dutch naturalist (primarily botanist) and collector of various Naturalia (mostly of flowers, but also of snakes, fishes, birds, etc. etc.) Eltio Alegondas Forsten, born in 1811 (i.e. 2 July 1811, in Middelburg, Holland) …. but when, what year, did he pass away?

In James Jobling's Helm Dictionary of Scientific Bird names (2010) it is stated "1811-1843" (as does it, in my MS, this far), but now I suddenly see, that today's HBW Alive Key, claim it as: "1811-1842"!?!

I had the impression, and have long believed, that he died on the Island Ambon, on the 3rd of January 1843 (also according to the Paper A SHORT JOURNEY TO EXPLORE THE EAST: ELTIO ALEGONDAS FORSTEN, by Mulyasari 2015, p. 9, but I (we) can be wrong!?

Also see the following links; here, here, here and so on ...

Anyone know?

Björn

PS. Also; does anyone have any idea where Gray's reference "M. Forsteni Temm." [by Temminck] is to be found? I assume it was published later.

PPS. And James, what made you change your entry?
---

Last edited by Calalp : Friday 25th March 2016 at 18:42. Reason: deletion of non-working link
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Old Friday 25th March 2016, 13:22   #2
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I have this (bad english, but read through the lines):

FORSTEN, Eltio Alegondas

Dutch
B. 02-07-1811, Middelburg, Zld
D. 03-01-1843, Ambon, Moluccas, Republic of Indonesia), collector in Indonesia
Collector in Indonesia

Son of Jacob Antoin Forsten en Johanna Gijsberta Knibbe
Studied under auspicien from Reinwardt and Jan van den Hoeven. He was awarded with a gold medal in science on 08-02-1832 and receiving his doctor’s degree in 16-12-1836 (with De Cedrela febrifuga’). He then started to learn the skills of taxidermy at RMNH. And was appointed by royal decree on 04-02-1838 as a member of the ‘Natuurkundige Commissie’ (Commission for Natural Sciences), and departed on 04-09-1838 towards Celebes. In September 1839 he temporarily filled the post of Director of the Natural History Museum at Batavia. From this position and he sent doublets towards RMNH as material collected by taxidermist B.N. Overdijk who joined Horner at Sumatra (arrived at RMNH at 22-07-1841). In 30-01-1840 he set out to Celebes in company with Heinrich von Gaffron. With seven natives they arreived at 22-03-1840 at Menado (northern Celebes) and settled at Tondano. During a year at this spot he explored nearly the whole of Minahassa. He arrived at 19-06-1841 at Ternate. His native hunters went out several times towards Halmahera, but Forsten left Ternate Mid-September towards Gorontalo. He left at April 1842 towards Ambon and from here he made two short journeys towards the Banda islands in August and later towards Ceram. At Ceram he became very ill, and was repatriated to Ambon, but died here.
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Old Friday 25th March 2016, 13:39   #3
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Very good researched article on him here. But maybe the error derived from page 3:

Quote:
The final entry of his journal (July 1842) reported the health situation of his hunters.
But at the end of the article he died as well 1843.
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Old Friday 25th March 2016, 18:36   #4
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Thanks, Justin ... and Martin, but ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taphrospilus View Post
Very good researched article on him here. ...
... the link doesn´t work. Please inform me/us of it´s title, author and publication. This isn´t, of course, necessary if you mean Mulyasari's Paper (2015), the one I mentioned in post #1 (same phrase on p.3).
-

Last edited by Calalp : Friday 25th March 2016 at 18:51. Reason: re-phrasing
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Old Friday 25th March 2016, 18:53   #5
l_raty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
... the link doesn´t work. Please inform me/us of it´s title, author and publication.
Mulyasari PN. 2015. A short journey to explore the East: Eltio Alegondas Forsten. Paramita: Historical Studies Journal. 25(1) DOI 10.15294/paramita.v25i1.3417

The link seems correct; the journal website looks like it is on an Indonesian university server, which appears down right now.
Try it again tomorrow?
You can read an abstract [here].

EDIT -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
This isn´t, of course, necessary if you mean Mulyasari's Paper (2015), the one I mentioned in post #1 (same phrase on p.3).
Yep, seems to be this one

Last edited by l_raty : Friday 25th March 2016 at 19:04.
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Old Friday 25th March 2016, 18:56   #6
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His second name is Alegondus, not Alegondas (contra wikipedia) or Allegondus (contra http://www.biografischportaal.nl/persoon/65260210).
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Old Friday 25th March 2016, 19:35   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenospiza View Post
His second name is Alegondus, ...
Based on what source?! Says who? According to whom (more than Xenospiza, of course)

Xenospiza, this claim needs proof, more than you simpy pointing it out. This would mean that a lot of references are wrong. Please enlighten us!

And if "Alegondus" was his true name, is Eltio an obvious Common Dutch name? Or is that one changed as well?
---

Last edited by Calalp : Saturday 26th March 2016 at 07:57. Reason: re-phrasing
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Old Saturday 26th March 2016, 07:51   #8
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I guess this link, this link and this link
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Old Saturday 26th March 2016, 07:54   #9
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By the way ...

Today's HBW Alive Key gives us:
Quote:
forsteni / forstenii
Dr Eltio Alegondas Forsten (1811-1843) Dutch zoologist, collector in the East Indies 1838-1843 (...
Order (of death) restored!
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Old Saturday 26th March 2016, 16:05   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinJansen View Post
I guess this link, this link and this link
Two of those links have "Allegondus" rather than "Alegondus" or "Alegondas". Another possibility is "Aldegondus" as found in this gentleman's name.
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Old Sunday 27th March 2016, 09:48   #11
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Thanks Paul!

I think that small remark (adding "Eeltjo Aldegondus van Beresteyn" to the case) helped greatly …

This far I think the name of the man behind forsteni was: Eltjo [but single-e, written, as above, with j] Aldegondus/Allegondus/Alegondus(?) Forsten (1811-1843) a k a "Eltio Alegondas" Forsten (during his travels in Far Eastern Asia – simply more easy to say, and certainly to pronounce, among the locals).

If curious, a potrait (as a kid) of "Eltjo Aldegondus Forsten (1811-1843)", here. From RKD (Nederlands institut voor kunstgeschiedenis)

Also see this Paper: Inventaris van het archief van het geslacht Van Beresteyn en aanverwante geslachten, by J.A.A. Bervoets, E.A. Ooijevaar, Nationaal Archief, Den Haag 1977, here (in Dutch, that I understand close to nothing of), from p.27 (he´s also mentioned on p.175):
Quote:
Door een huwelijk van Paulus Anne van Beresteyn (1824-1908) met Eldine Allegonda Gaymans (1835-1915) raakte het geslacht Van Beresteyn verwant met het gelderse patriciërsgeslacht Gaymans, dat vooral in Arnhem een belangrijke rol heeft gespeeld23. Via het hugenotengeslacht Pielat van Bulderen24 was dit geslacht indirect verwant met het Leidse juristengeslacht Vromans en het Groningse intellectuelengeslacht Forsten25. Het is mogelijk, dat de voornamen Eltjo Allegondus aan dit geslacht zijn ontleend. Een naamgenoot van E.A. van Beresteyn, Eltjo Allegondus Forsten (1811-1843) maakte een veelbelovende, doch vroegtijdig afgebroken carrière als bioloog bij Nederlandse expedities in Oost-Indië.

Het geslacht Frowein, de voorouders van de echtgenote van Eltjo Allegondus van Beresteyn*, stamt uit Lennip (Duitsland) en ontwikkelde ...
*Paul's "gentleman" (I assume)!?

So what about the "Aldegondus/Allegondus/Alegondus" mess? Which one to trust; his own Diary, one or the other of all those various sources (in earlier links) or the Dutch National Archive? Regarding the true, original spelling of his name?

Anyone seen a birth record?

(if not, look for; 2nd or 12th of July 1811)
--

Last edited by Calalp : Sunday 27th March 2016 at 10:23. Reason: 2nd or 12th of July 1811
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Old Sunday 27th March 2016, 16:45   #12
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There have been a lot of spelling reforms in the Dutch language over the years, so it's possible that the variants you see have been affected by those reforms. You can find a lot of "van Beresteijn" in place of "van Beresteyn" on the web, for example.
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Old Friday 1st April 2016, 05:27   #13
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Well, nothing added here, thereby I will go for:

forsteni
= the Dutch zoologist Dr. Eltjo Allegondus Forsten (1811–1843) a k a "Eltio Alegondas Forsten", collector in the East Indies from 1838 until shortly before his death.

Born in May 1811 (2nd or 12th, dates differ), in Middelburg (Zeeland), in south-western Netherlands … who died 3rd of January1843 on the Island Ambon, Moluccas (in today's Indonesia).

See the following (several documents) from the Dutch Nationaal Archief, 2010-2016 (or here)
Quote:
Eltjo Allegondus Forsten (1811-1843)
Eltjo Allegondus, zoon van Jacob Anton Forsten en Johanna Gijsberta Knibbe, nam deel aan biologische expedities in Nederlands-Indië
# Installatiebul van de Leidse Studentensenaat Intro Ubique. 29 oktober 1829 1 charter
# Antwoord op een prijsvraag over aether en nafte door Forsten, student in de medicijnen, bekroond op 8 februari 1832. Gedrukt. 1832 1 deel
# Dissertatie over de plant Cedrela Febrifuga op Java, geschreven ter verkrijging van de doctorstitel in de medicijnen aan de universiteit van Leiden. Gedrukt. 16 december 1836 1 deel
# Doctorsbul. 16 december 1836 1 charter
# Ingekomen uitnodiging van de goeverneur-generaal van Nederlands-Indië voor een diner. April 1839 1 stuk
# Stukken betreffende financiële aangelegenheden van de commissie voor natuurkundig onderzoek in Celebes, met minuut-rapporten van Forsten, lid van deze commissie, aan het ministerie van Koloniën. 1839-1842 1 band
# Stukken afkomstig van Forsten en zijn familieleden, aangetroffen bij zijn dood, 1799-1843, met staat opgemaakt door commissarissen inzake zijn nagelaten boedel. 30 maart 1843 1 band
De inhoud is verwerkt in de index
# Nota van C.J. Temminck,directeur van 's Rijks Museum voor Natuurlijke Historie te Leiden, aan de minister van Binnenlandse Zaken over de door Forsten nagelaten natuurhistorische voorwerpen, Afschrift. 20 januari 1848. z.j. 1 stuk
If that spelling is good enough for a National Archive it´s good enough for me.

Anyone oppose?
---
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Old Saturday 2nd April 2016, 11:47   #14
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It is perfect!
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Old Friday 8th April 2016, 07:04   #15
Calalp
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Conclusion

Thanks Justin, that short confirming reply was just what I needed, coming from the Netherlands makes it extra welcomed and even more reassuring.

Then Eltjo Allegondus Forsten it is! … and onwards as in Post #13 (at least in my MS).

Thereby, time to wrap up this thread …

Not bad, 14 Posts, resulting in some (minor) improvement, simply thanks to James's unfortunate (but in retrospect fortunate) "1842" we managed to push this Eponym a little bit further! [Good on you, James, if you had not written it that way, I would never had any reason to question what was told regarding Mr. Forsten] … and thanks to all! This was a true team effort!

Who could have seen that one coming!?

Mr. Forsten … over and out!
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Old Sunday 10th March 2019, 08:05   #16
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Sorry to re-open this old thread. But after having visited it again (in giving my MS entry on Mr Forsten an extra polish), I simply cannot understand how (on Earth!) I concluded, in post #13, that Mr Eltjo Allegondus Forsten suddenly was "born in May 1811" (and not in July, as earlier stated, also by myself) ...

Both Molhuysen (1918) and Mulyasari (2015) claim he was born in July 1811 (12th resp. 2nd, the latter also found in Justin's notes) ... compare posts #1 and 2, up to 11 versus #13 ... !?

Anyone who does understand, or remember?

Maybe I simply made a sloppy mistake (possibly a typo), somewhere, as in turning a scribbled note, of 07 (July) ... into 05 (May)? Or did I possibly mix it all up, with another, a completely different guy, simultaneously dealt with, in another thread?

I´m all confused ... by my own words!? Sigh.


Is there any way to find his Dutch Birth record?

Grateful for any help!

Björn
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Old Sunday 10th March 2019, 10:02   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
Is there any way to find his Dutch Birth record?
https://www.zeeuwsarchief.nl/onderzo...paign=OpenData
Eltio Alegondus Forsten was born on 2 July 1811 in "Middelbourg, Département des Bouches de l'Escaut" (now Middelburg, Zeeland, the Netherlands).
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Old Sunday 10th March 2019, 13:17   #18
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Laurent, reliable as ever!

Thereby, I´ll use: Eltjo Allegondus Forsten, born 2 July 1811 (in his Birth record written: "Eltio Alegondus Forsten") ... and onwards.

Thanks!

Björn
--

Last edited by Calalp : Sunday 10th March 2019 at 19:59. Reason: missed )
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Old Wednesday 3rd July 2019, 15:27   #19
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Forsten vs. Forster

Just a quick word to note that Columba forsterii "Temminck" [here], currently referenced in the Key as "syn. Ducula forsteni", among the names dedicated to Johann Reinhold Forster, was actually honouring EA Forsten from the start.

(In the OD, Prévost refers to "M. le docteur Forster, membre de la Commission scientifique néerlandaise de l’Inde", which is a reasonable match for EA Forsten (a physician, and a member of the Natuurkundige Commissie voor Nederlandsch-Indië), not for JR Forster. Hemiphaga forsteni Bonaparte 1854 [here], which is now in use for this bird, is an emendation of forsterii which Bonaparte justified in part by the fact that the dedicatee's name had been corrupted in Prévost's text. (The other reason being that forsteri was preoccupied.))

Last edited by l_raty : Thursday 4th July 2019 at 11:14.
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Old Thursday 4th July 2019, 08:59   #20
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@Laurent: Of course very vigilant on a tricky one (with the misspelling).
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Old Thursday 4th July 2019, 15:08   #21
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Regardless of vigilance, or not, the OD of Bonaparte's name (of 1854) is pretty obvious, as neither one of the two Forsters (both predated) had any individual/personal, contemporary connection to the (later) Natuurkundige Commissie voor Nederlandsch-Indië (1820-1850) ...

Note that today's HBW Alive Key also have "Ducula" in the list for forsteni/forstenii, of birds commemorating E. A. Forsten.

For what it is worth, in my MS (of Swedish Common names) I have vitbukig kejsarduva [in line with its English name] White-bellied Imperial-Pigeon Ducula forsteni BONAPARTE 1854 (OD in Comptes rendus ... 39:p.1077 = Laurent's latter link, in post #19), as "Hemiphaga forsteni", though in my MS this bird is only mentioned (briefy) in the windup, among others, as one of some other species (on top of the two in my post #1), which in its scientific name (as well) is commemorating E. A. Forsten [i.e. Eltjo Allegondus Forsten (1811–1843)]

... which, to me, if I understand it all correctly, also would cover the misspelt "Columba Forsterii", by Temminck (alt./and/or Prévost, in Knip, 1838-1843), as it apparently is/was the same bird they were talking about.

Why Bonaparte is credited as the Author of this taxon is however beyond my grasp. Presumably due to the "erreur" by "Temminck" (alt./and/or Prévost).

The only bird commemorating any Forster that I've got (in my MS, which is far, far less extensive in numbers of taxa, in comparison to the multitude of names in James's Key) is the less questionable, even more obvious; Forster's Tern Sterna forsteri (earlier a k a "forstertärna” or ”Forsters tärna”, in Swedish, in line with its English name), named after Johann Reinhold Forster (1729–1798).

Either way, don't hesitate to remark on anything of the above (in this post) if it's erroneous (even in the tiniest detail) ... as this is what I will publish, in some far-away (hopefully not too far-away) future.

Björn

PS. Laurent (even if beyond my horizon), what about the "C. [Carpophaga] Forsteri (Wagl.)", listed by G. R. Gray (here, below No. 469), ex Wagler 1829 (here, on p.739, thus not on p.729, as Gray claimed). Equal of which of today's Doves/Pigeons?

Also listed here (1844) and here (1859) ... ?!? Maybe those texts would cover/explain the presence of some of the (all in all three) synonym/s in Ducula, listed in today's Key (under forsteri/forsterii/forsterorum)?

However, sorting out the latter (seemingly messy) case/s is even further away from my grasp (and time-frame).

If anyone feel like giving them a go; Good luck!
--

Last edited by Calalp : Thursday 4th July 2019 at 15:39. Reason: italics
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Old Thursday 4th July 2019, 17:44   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
Why Bonaparte is credited as the Author of this taxon is however beyond my grasp. Presumably due to the "erreur" by "Temminck" (alt./and/or Prévost).
Prévost's (alt./and/or Temminck's) Columba forsterii is an obvious error, but is not correctible because Forsten is ostensibly called "Forster" in the OD, thus there is no *internal* evidence of a problem. But it cannot be used either, because it is a junior primary homonym. Bonaparte deliberately changed this name to forsteni, which created a new name which is deemed authored by him -- and is not preoccupied, thus can be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
PS. Laurent (even if beyond my horizon), what about the "C. [Carpophaga] Forsteri (Wagl.)", listed by G. R. Gray (here, below No. 469), ex Wagler 1829 (here, on p.739, thus not on p.729, as Gray claimed). Equal of which of today's Doves/Pigeons?
If (?) the type locality indicated by Wagler is correct, this should be a senior synonym of Ducula aurorae wilkesii (Peale 1848)... (But the description doesn't seem to match that taxon well.)
But this name (unless you decide to expand the 'R.' in Wagler's original 'C. R. Forsteri', at least) is another junior primary homonym, because there is a still earlier Columba forsteri Desmarest 1826 [here], which is a syn. of Ptilinopus porphyraceus (Temminck 1821) -- and which I don't see in the Key at all.

Last edited by l_raty : Friday 5th July 2019 at 10:08. Reason: por-, not 'prorphyraceus' (thanks Björn).
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